Reverend Greg

For Charles,

It is true that at the time of the Shakyamuni's enlightenment he practiced Samatha. However, it is his introduction of vipasyana/vipassana (insight or analytic meditation) which set him apart from other renunciates and the religious authorities (brahmans) of the time. He practiced with a few of the greatest samatha masters, completed the highest levels of samatha, and concluded that it was a 'high' (experience of perfect equanimity) from which all beings must fall if they do not attain prajna (deepest understanding) concerning reality.

I'm not sure about Nichiren though.

For queen lolo,

I'm sorry to hear that you were exposed to negative views from SGI about other forms of Buddhism, but I don't think this should be a necessary deal-breaker concerning further practice. Of course, if negativity is what you felt every time you visited them, then I would suggest trying another path.

But in truth, most if not all Buddhist schools/sects will at times disparage other forms of Buddhism. The important thing to remember is this is most often meant as specific advice to a specific practitioner or type of practitioner. I once had an orchestra teacher who used to speak quite disparagingly about 'band' (another, more popular, option students could take to fulfil their music requirements). A few years later I found him at a symphony and asked him if/why he really disliked 'band' so much. He replied that he didn't; in fact he loved 'band' just as much as orchestra, but desperately needed to keep the few of us that didn't like the course there so that the school wouldn't discontinue the program (thus saving it for the students who really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it).

For Greg,

Thank you for your story - I'm not sure what exactly to say, other than that it seems that you found your way very well in the end. I think it would be impossible for us in cyberspace to say much in particular about your experience other than that it was probably indicative of where you were (spiritually and otherwise) at the time, and not something that will likely be replicated by others.

For some, Zen may unlock the doors to enlightenment, for others it may be SGI. The important thing, I believe, is to work hard at whatever you practice, find a great teacher, and develop the wish to help all beings.

May all beings find the peace of nirvana.

justin whitaker

Greg,

Thanks for your candid and helpful post about your early experience with NSA. I have been a member of NSA/SGI since the early 80's myself. Having been raised very explicitly as an atheist, I would never have gone for something as dualistic on its face as Nichiren Buddhism were it not for my having been in a life-and-death pickle at the time it was transmitted to me by a zealous NSA member in a cafe lunch line in 1981. I, like you, went on a huge daimoku high when I first started. That high didn't end until a couple of years later when I was forced to consider the possibility (by way of my experimentation with another spiritual system) that almost any repetitive program, earnestly followed, would produce similar results in my life. For me, that "high," was about the forbidden idea (denied especially to birth-atheists) that yes, Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus!

Fear of remaining in danger attracted me to Nichiren Buddhism, and fear of something worse made me stay. Fear of what? With all the cautionary tales of horror and proselytizing tales of delight that gushed from NSA at that time, it was, for me, a fear that something awful would happen to my children if I acted on my growing discomfort with the NSA propaganda and stepped back. Gradually, however, I did step back, my life went on, and my children grew up beautifully.

I've still practiced with the SGI on and off over the years, but never with the same degree of zeal. The main reason I return to it is familiarity rather than conviction. It's a habit that's sometimes good and sometimes not.

Lately I've been studying some Zen authors, and even tried a little bit of zazen. It's fascinating. I especially like the non-dualism of it, and feel like I've possibly come back to where I should have been all along. I haven't attended any sessions and wonder how I will feel after I've experienced some of the more austere aspects of the Zen group experience.

Leslie

Great reply Charles...

I don't think of myself as high-strung, I'm certainly "in motion" though.

I meditated regularly in my youth, and I can enter a meditative state still very quickly.

That's cool. You'll have to find your refutation somewhere else though!

Greg, Rev.

Rev. Greg:

Your experience with Zen - or dhyana type meditation, is interesting. Long before and up until I embraced the Mystic Law, I practiced mantra yoga, pranayama, and dhyana meditation - daily. I don't know you personally, but I get the impression you might be high-strung. It takes some people a while relax and enter deeper states of meditation. Perhaps because of your past connection to the Mystic Law, it caused this quiet path to seem heavy or strange.

Speaking of that - I believe that both Shakyamuni and Nichiren attained enlightenment or their Buddhahood through quiet meditation. That's why I still practice quiet meditation. If someone can refute my assertion that Shakyamuni and Nichiren attained enlightenment through dhyana and or samadhi, I will appreciate that and change my point-of-view.

Charles

Hmmm. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that this is comparing apples to oranges. Even though meditation and chanting are both considered "Buddhist" practices, the problem here may be in COMPARING them. I wonder, CAN and SHOULD they be compared at all? Just because they fall under the category of "Buddhism" should they be judged and looked at the same way?

I think in the end, it's just a matter of what you're looking for in a spiritual practice. "To each his own," as they say. For some people, energetic verbal prayer is the key. For others, silent, calming meditation does the trick. For others it's whirlish dancing. No matter what the method, in the end I think it all comes down to what we like, what makes us feel best, and what rings true to our own inner spirit. And of course, what lights your fire one year (or one day) might be completely different in the future.

You know, I read something about a Buddhist teacher in the East. She said she mediated in her younger years, but then switched to chanting later on. (Or maybe it was visa versa). She said that in her tradition, one method was used during the first part of live, and the other was for the latter years. (I wish I could recall which was which.) In any case, this really stuck in my mind. It wasn't either/or, it wasn't a matter of which is best. It was what worked best at certain stages of life.

And I had to add that this negative attitude in the SGI about other forms of Buddhism is the ultimate deal-breaker for me. It's simply wrong. It's the antithesis of true Buddhism, too. As my teenager said, "Aren't Buddhists supposed to be about peace and understanding?"

Ryuei,

Your temple has always been in Campbell in my mind. Sorry.

It was your temple I was connected to, with Rev. Matsuda. A long long time ago.

Rev. Greg

Can you remember what went on in your mind between the zen expirience and the noting of lack of power in your chanting. I tend to think this was a subjective expirience, something you caused to happen consciously or unconciously, and not some kind of retribution for venturing into the realm of zen. Zen is not evil in my opinion although I think it would be a slower (much) process than Nichiren's buddhism, but I'm sure that's subjective too.

Can you remember what went on in your mind between the zen expirience and the noting of lack of power in your chanting. I tend to think this was a subjective expirience, something you caused to happen consciously or unconciously, and not some kind of retribution for venturing into the realm of zen. Zen is not evil in my opinion although I think it would be a slower (much) process than Nichiren's buddhism, but I'm sure that's subjective too.

Wow, interesting experience. As an aside, I wondered what you mean by a Nichiren Shu temple in Campbell. Did you really mean Nichiren Shu or did you mean the San Jose Temple?

Anyway, my initial attraction to Buddhism was through Zen, but only reading koans and essay. I never got a chance to actually do zazen practice before I ran into Odaimoku (or it ran into me). It would not be until a few years later (including two years of harcore daily Nichiren Buddhist practice) that I would have the opportunity to sit in silent meditation with the people at Shambhalla and then the Won Buddhists. I did not have that shortcircuiting or experience. But I did feel an incredible sense of being grounded and at ease. I found that it did not conflict with my Odaimoku practice at all, and in Won Buddhism both chanting and meditation are used equally - so Rev. Kim encouraged me to maintain my daily gongyo and Odaimoku practice while also beginning a sitting practice. What I did suspect and still believe, however, is that I would not have had the ability or the discipline to take up silent sitting if I had not gained it through Odaimoku practice.

Later, I came to the West Coast and discovered the practice of Shodaigyo Meditation as practiced in Nichiren Shu wherein silent sitting and Odaimoku are smoothly integrated. That was a great discovery for me, as I discovered that instead of being two seperate and perhaps contradictory practice directions, they could actually reinforce one another and mutually deepen one another. The Ven. Ryusho Matsuda esp. emphasizes being grounded in the hara (lower abdoment) and to center one's practice from there whether one is silently sitting or chanting.

I remember the first time I went to the San Jose Temple they were doing silent sitting practice and I voiced my surprise as up until that time I thought Nichiren Buddhists only chanted. The Ven. Ryushob Matsuda was taken aback by this statement and replied, "Of course we meditate. All Buddhists meditate." But really, in Nichiren Shu silent sitting is a supportive practice and its purpose is to help us clear our minds and center ourselves so that we chant the Odaimoku with even more clarity, focus, and mindfulness, and then it is used to ground the energy raised and to abide peacefully in the Odaimoku. So there is no question on my part as to what is the essential practice - Namu Myoho Renge Kyo.

None of my subsequent experiences with Zen have changed my opinions about that. I can still talk about the sole efficacy of the Odaimoku, but I do mean it in an all-embracing rather than exclusionary manner.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

Hi, Greg -- I can't explain the sudden loss of your daimoku high so many years ago. I myself sat at the mt. Baldy Zen Center for awhile before I ever heard of the Gakkai and NSA. I remember that having chanted the Heart Sutra at so many zen gatherings predisposed me to chanting sutras, and my early leaders were impressed with my "fortune" at picking up gongyo as easily as I did, althoug ignorantly alarmed at the fact that I had picked the skill up in a zen center.

I don't know enough about the social context in which Nichiren was writing when he came up with that whole Zen leads to the hell of incessant suffering thing back in his day. I do know that I have become unwilling to embrace that philosophy myself, and that I am also unwilling to embrace Nikko's admonitions against going to other kinds of temples even to visit.

We in the Gakkai are trained to disparage other forms of Buddhism without knowing amything about them, just as some kids are raised to disparage Jews or blacks or arabs or Catholics or whatever without knowing anything about them. This is karma I have decided that I don't want. It is also a pattern of relating to other human beings which will impede our stated goal of world peace.

Lunch time! Talk to you all later, Byrd in LA