Reverend Greg

You escape your doom through a Quake. - Brian

Rev. Greg -

"Doomed are yea who are not of the family...."

So that would be something like being consigned to the "Hell of Incessant Computer Games"? How does one eventually escape from this hell?

Namaste, Engyo Mike Barrett

I'm sorry Andy, I will have to disregard your comments as you are no longer a part of "the family".

B^|

Doomed are yea who are not of the family....

Rev. Greg

Hey, Brian, I'm enjoying your ongoing scrap with Lisa, as (one hopes) are you and Lisa. I thought I'd butt in with a suggestion. Beware, though, 'cause it has the potential, if listened to, of resolving your dispute. Well, you'll decide what's best for you of course.

My suggestion echoes Lisa's about the use of the term "cult," and maybe goes a bit further. You e-know me as well as anyone, and while I can be pretty annoying, I think it's fair to say that I lean more toward the rational side of things than not. If I do say so. And I do.

I have not read extensively, as Lisa has, about folks who write about cults. Not have I read extensively, as you have, about many and various matters philosophical and religious and other. So (act surprised) I speak with no authority whatsoever, other than my own.

It occurs to me that what Lisa is pointing to, as you mention when you say...

"When you talk about actual misdeeds, you are making serious points."

...is entirely legitimate. In that same paragraph you then say:

"When you try to paste labels like "cult" and "spiritual abuse," you are spouting nonsense."

You back that up by pointing out that the "vast majority" of folks who know about this shit spurn such terminology.

So, screw the terminolgy. I mean, let Lisa use it if it works for her. There are certainly plenty of folks who do use it, as she cites often. You say she's gone "off the deep end." I say that maybe she has and maybe she hasn't (I rather doubt it, myself), but so what? The information she puts out is, as far as I know, accurate. Do you dispute any of that? And she's challenged you in your own affection for and attachment to the SGI-USA, and you've not addressed that, and it's a legitimate challenge, doncha think?

Anyway, enough for now. I just thought I'd jump in and muddy the waters a bit. Hope you've enjoyed this interlude. Feel free (as I know you do) to ignore any or all of what I've said, be it said ever so poorly.

Carry on!

Andy

I just wanted to say that I *did* hear that level of "cult speak" during my recent (and short) stint with SGI. I was told to regard any negative remarks about SGI as being something along the lines as tools of a devilish function.

And I didn't want to be a big fish...I just wanted something to give me hope in my life. Bitching incessantly about the temple issue and praising Ikeda for writing books and having tea socials really didn't make me feel like I was doing much to make the world a better place.

I can understand Lisa's anger and determination. On the cover, SGI looks like the perfect organization for folks who are looking for a way of creating peace in their lives and doing something to make the world a better place. It isn't until you get on the inside do you realize that it's nothing more than a self-supporting organization...but not until after one has already put a lot of hope and faith in what could have been.

Yeah, everyone who thinks SGI is a cult is nuts, Brian. Everyone but devoted SGI members.

Take care,
Lisa

You mean you really didn't know that "Doctor Science" was a joke? And if reading what you write over a period of years doesn't inform me about what you believe, then I have to question why you continue to write anything, as apparently you do not succeed in communicating. The rest of your post is just more pseudoscience and myth of the monolith ranting. Lisa, you have gone off the deep end. Sorry. - Brian

So you're not a doctor of science, you just play one on the Internet. Brian, maybe you truly believe you can know a person's heart or life by what you read from them online, but I think that's sorta sad. It's like people who have "online girlfriends" -- it may be a "relationship" but it's based on projection more than reality. I may know of you, and you may know of me, but that hardly makes you an authority on what my beliefs are, what I do, how I feel and my experiences with SGI. This is what you have claimed -- that you know me. You don't.

Even now, you assert that I was "too eager to believe in the beginning." Huh? Sorry, you didn't know me when I started practicing Buddhism, and I was quite skeptical. I was skeptical even when I was working on the SGI-USA staff.

Actually, psychologists and sociologists who have researched cults have found that members who are initially quite skeptical of a cult group but are gradually won over (usually over a period of about 2 years) are more likely to stay in the cult longer and express greater devotion than those who were not initially skeptical.

It's in Len Oakes book, in his survey of former and current cult members -- he discovered that the average life-cycle for cult membership is about 2 years. You really should read his book "Prophetic Charisma" -- Oakes spells out the five (or is it six?) stages that cult members evolve through -- or in the case of long-time members, the stages where they get stuck.

Now, for you to dismiss the studies of people like Oakes as somehow being blind to the persuasive aspects of religion or somehow spouting nonsense about the psychology of charisma and cults, it's clear to me that you just don't know what you're talking about, Brian.

So let's try another tack. You don't like the word cult, so let's not use it. But look at the facts: SGI fibs to you. SGI keeps secrets from you. You have no say in the policies of your organization. You disagree with many of the organization's doctrines. Your attachements to the organization are primarily emotional -- these people are your friends, and you have said that you "owe" the SGI because they helped you at a time when you felt your life was screwed up.

Much as you may like to believe that your participation in SGI is a purely rational, informed choice, I think you're not willing to look at, maybe, an unacknowledged emotional dependence on the org.

Is this possible?

Lisa J.

Lisa,
I have never posted false personal claims about you here or elsehwere. And of course we know each other -- we have been talking to each other in various internet forums for how long? Five years at least, I believe. Nor do I smear you when I point out that you were too eager to believe in the beginning and now have swung to the other extreme.
The idea of "cult" and "mind control" has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of religious scholars and psychologists. I don't need a Ph.D. to know that. (BTW, my degree is an MA in Philosophy from the Univ. of Pittsburgh). Again, you are failing to employ a reasonable skepticism and are simply accepting whatever ideas help you vent your emotions.
Certainly ALL religions employ the tactics of persuasion you mention: peer pressure and emotional manipulation. Every one. And not just religions. All groups do this. The only issue is a value judgement: do you approve of the group? Obviously, we all disapprove of the People Temple and other suicide cults. You disapprove of the SGI in toto. I approve more of it than I disapprove. But the issue is value judgement, not pseudoscientific nonsense about "cults" and "mind control." When you talk about actual misdeeds, you are making serious poits. When you try to paste labels like "cult" and "spiritual abuse," you are spouting nonsense. - Brian

Greg, you accused me of wanting to be "a big fish." People like that are usually egomaniacs. That's why I used the word egomaniacal.

Lisa

I'm embarassed to say I went to Lisa's site and it has been greatly updated since I last saw it..

However, members of SGI! DO NOT LOOK AT THIS SITE! LIES! LIES!

(there, I've done my job)

DOH! B^o

Rev. Greg

Lisa - You're being unfair to the comments I made. Perhaps I've earned your wrath, nonetheless;
"your likening soka critics to drug addicts or sociopaths, your assertion that those like me who criticize SGI are selfish or egomaniacal, etc."

You've greatly over-generalized. I've already clarified my comments. I liken culties to drug addicts and ex-culties to ex-drug addicts. There are plenty of critics of the Soka Gakkai that weren't cult members in SGI and many that were never members at all.

And I did not accuse you of being "egomaniacal", that word contains "maniac" and that is not what I'm accusing you of being. I accused you of being selfish. Big difference. I wonder though why *you* used the word egomaniacal? That's a really strong word.

Having heard what went behind the creation of sokacult.com I would be glad to update my perception of you. I did ask you many times why you dumped Budhajones and you wouldn't answer me then.

I believe there IS a cult in the SGI. However I do not perceive myself as being a cultie. Sorry, I can't wear those clothes and I will not live in your reality.

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

Thanks for the reply Charles, I'll be sure to update my records.

B^)

Rev. Greg

Rev. Greg:

"I never know what to make of Charles. I keep a strict policy of never trusting culties, and especially not EX-culties."

I'm just a Buddha, Rev.

Charles

Hi Brian. Are you going to claim on this board (as you have on other boards such as Beliefnet) how well you know me, and how well you know my life and my motivations even though we've *never* even met or spoken? Now, Brian, why would you post false personal claims about me online? In an attempt to smear a soka critic maybe?

Granted, I guess you can't recognize that you're a cult apologist if you can't even acknowledge that cults exist. That's where your argument has always fallen desperate and short, Brian: Your assertion that cults are pure science fiction. To hear you tell it, peer pressure, emotional manipulation and spiritual abuse in groups like the Peoples Temple, the Moonies and SGI is just nonsense. Oh, yes, and *in Pittsburgh* the lollipop trees bloom year round!

By the way, Doctor Science, where did you earn your Ph.D. and in what discipline?

Lisa Jones

Well, yes, Lisa, volumes of nonsense have been written about it, and you've swallowed this stuff whole. I guess "cult mind-control" is as good an excuse as any, if that's what you need.

Yes, Greg, I think SokaCult.com fulfills its purpose and I'm happy with it. My issue has never been with what you think of my web site. My issue -- as you'll see if you scroll down and re-read my earlier notes -- is with your spouting groundless personal smears, your likening soka critics to drug addicts or sociopaths, your assertion that those like me who criticize SGI are selfish or egomaniacal, etc.

Primarily, I take issue with your ignorance of cults and cult tactics. It's very common for cult members to make personal attacks on critics rather than address the criticisms and the facts of the cult in question. That's what I see you doing. Elephant. Living room. How many piles of crap do you need to step in before you're willing to acknowledge its presence?

You say in your article: "Reading Charles will always leave me wondering what function it is inside human life that leads people to become culties, and turn organizations into cults." Volumes have been written on this subject, Greg. Maybe you ought to read one.

Lisa Jones

oops...a big mistake above...the sentence saying Nichiren Shoshu Minobu School should naturally read Nichiren Shu Minobu School...lol...
Just wishful thinking perhaps? lol..
Jussi.

Greg; I do not believe I invited any attacks from you on the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood or faith. I know your views on that fully well and naturally object to them strongly.
If you have chosen to believe the very mistaken views (IMV) expressed in publications such as the "dark history" etc I can not do much about that.
As we live in a free society we just have to disagree on this matter.
However let me just say that my experience of our Priesthood and of its history is rather different from yours.
This includes views on the present High Priest whom I have actually met. Have you?
You have no real proof beyond Nichiren Shoshu Minobu School allegations that Nichiren Shoshu has lied about anything. No more than I have that they have not in the sense that a lot of it belongs in the realm of faith and interpretations of lines of Gosho and the Sutras.
I am not in the "same boat" as Lisa Jones as her reasons are her own and I am sure they would not be the same as mine for exposing the dark side of SGI.
Before you say it..yes I have met Mr Ikeda too...that is another experience in itself...
The whole topic of SGI is rather a sensitive at present for me as I have yet again been at the receiving end of a silly stunt by one of the fanatical members of which I probably shall wrote a blog soon as it (the episode) is fully finished...what I can say now it is an example of sinking to new lows...
Jussi.

Jussi - thanks for reading and taking the time to respond. First, I certainly understand why you and Lisa came to broad conclusions about my intentions and comments regarding her website. Allow me to clarify. I just don't like sokacult.com. I think it's an ugly website. I think the sarcasm obscures the message. If I haven't made that clear in previous replies, then I hope I've made it clear now. I think the manner, the style, in which Lisa has delivered her message was just - unattractive, ugly, nasty. That's all. Well, that and calling her an ex-cultie but that accusation is only relevant if you understand my views regarding the human function of cultism.

Now with all respect Jussi, I personally consider Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood the greatest liars in all of Nichiren Buddhism. Their very doctrine and version of the history of the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin is itself a gigantic lie. Unfortunately for me, and those who believe as I do, SGI has not yet released it's addiction to Nichiren Shoshu fake Nichiren Buddhism. I do apologize if that is worded in a confrontational manner, but that's how I feel.

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and "the pot calling the kettle black" are expressions that come to mind.

As far as my stance on the Soka Gakkai. I am a realist, or at least I strive to be. Lisa thinks I'm in denial, perhaps you think I'm a walking contradiction. In the end, I believe I'm just free.

Thanks,

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

Greg; I have to confess I get very confussed as to what you see yourself as being..at times you come across like a hardline SGI defender of the faith and at others you seem to be a rebel...I just can't tell where your real alliances are beyond your other interests which appear to me to be in conflict with what SGI is about.
Be that as it may I found this attack of yours on Lisa Jones' new website odd.
It is obvious that for someone like Lisa Jones who appears to me to have been rather badly stung by her many years in SGI and thus yes, she des appear to have a chip on her shoulders following her life in the SGI.
But whether she gets pleasure from revealing all about your organisation or not the facts are there. I have not read anything on that site that I imagine to be invented. So rather than attacking her if someone feels she is in the wrong on the issues she raises perhaps they ought to reveal the facts they have at their disposal which refute hers.
People leave SGI for various reasons and they feel dutybound to share their experiences with others at times. Some want to expose things others just want an easy life out of it.
Myself, I left for doctrinal reasons purely.
Of course there was some anger when more and more was revealed to me how I had been lied to especially concerning the issues with the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood.
But I have let go of most of it and while always pointing out the errors of sGI to others if asked I do not aggressively attack the SGI on the net or elswewhere.
Ms Jones' reasons are very different from mine but I do applaud her devoting so much of her time to reveal facts still hidden from the rank and file of SGI membership and in that she is doing an important job however she dresses it.
I am glad she has moved on from her shock tactics which were on her previous site which I foudn un-necessary and yes horrible for a Nichiren Shoshu believer to see...I did not admire her much then and could not understand how someone could make such inane jokes as the dancing High Priest heads and so on..thus showing such a lack of respect towards all who might find such flippancy offensive.
The reason for that was that I got the feeling that then she just wanted to shock to create a reactions....positive or negative did not matter...but now she has moved into more interesting matters, matters which actually affect a lot of people's lives.
Best, Jussi.

Well, first, thanks for your replies and the time you've taken to write. No, we never talked, but we exchanged some nice e-mails. I've always been extremely appreciative of your allowing me to write on your old site, Buddhajones.

Next, I apologize if I hurt your feelings by calling your new site ugly. I suppose I have to ask, what did YOU think it was? I mean, the sarcasm is so completely over the top it's like the pointed finger of blame that points so hard that it points back to the owner. Did YOU think your site was suppose to be a nice or attractive site? I must confess that if I thought you would have taken my comment so personally, I may not have made it.

Thirdly, I resent (a little) you calling my an apologist. Maybe you haven't read me very comprehensively.

Forthly, I have grappled with the subject of my "own special private self-invented fantasy-insulated SGI" and I must confess that I can only see what I see, and I can only experience what I experience. I have never seen nor experienced the SGI you have experienced. Unless I take the time to try and remote view the executive offices of SGI it's beyond what I know. How would you have me emphathize with your experience?

When you took down Buddhajones I asked you, I begged you to tell me what had happened. Having now heard your experience talking with your sister I can finally understand what went behind Sokacult.com. So thank you for sharing.

Fifthly (am I on 5?) I don't rely on being smart to protect me against cultism. If you've read me you know I rely on my experience in other parts of my life, as well as my own powers of observation and my powers of self-relfection. How limited they are is hard to tell since I can be the only judge.

It is almost certainly, especially after my leadership finally (which they will) discovers "Rev. Greg, Shidoshi", that I will never be asked to hold a leadership higher than chapter chief.

Sixthly - sixfly? sixthily? I work hard at not defending SGI as being a cult. From your extreme perspective perhaps it seems like it, but it is not my wish to try and convince anyone SGI is not a cult. In fact, I suggest anyone who thinks they may be a cultie leave the cult - period.

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

No, Greg, you don't know me. Never met me. Never talked to me. But don't let that stop you from attributing my (valid) criticisms of SGI to -- what? Ah yes, the personal failings that you have invented for me -- my desire to be "a big fish" as you put it.

I have a great many failings, as people who actually know me are aware. A desire to be "a big fish" has never been one of them.

Naturally, you have no idea how many hours each week BuddhaJones required, and you probably don't care how many months and years I contributed to that site, offering it for free and without ads. 'Cause it's all just selfishness, really.

Before I took down BuddhaJones I called my sister. She always gives me her honest opinion. She knows how much time and effort I put into BuddhaJones. She said, "Stop hiding your light in a box." That's a paraphrase from the Bible, FYI. Stop hiding your light in a tiny claustrophobic soulkilling backwater of hostility, ingratitude and idiotic self-importance known as SGI. Best advice I ever got, Greg. So I offer it to you.

If I took no responsibility for my role in perpetuating the cult of SGI, I would have sold the BuddhaJones domain name to one of the many people who asked to buy it. Instead I built SokaCult.com to let people know what I had discovered about SGI. What SGI did or didn't "do" to me you will never know, barring a case in open court, or...

Point is, Greg, I have books to write and jobs to do. SGI is, fortunately or unfortunately, a significant part of my biography. People ask me what I think of SGI, what my experience with SGI was. I tell them. I feel it's my responsibility to tell them. Whether they -- or you -- agree with me is a different matter.

I say on my site and I'll say it again here: the issue is not personalities -- not yours, not mine. It's about coming to recognize cults and cult tactics. You can dismiss all of the information on my site and the many volumes written (and being written) about cult psychology as the work of flawed personalities, sure. But that's the equivalent of ignoring the circus elephant in your living room.

Perhaps you and other SGI apologists feel that your minds are invulnerable. You are far too smart to be taken in by a cult. Maybe you find some comfort in this, and part of me does not want inconvenient realities to disturb your pleasant dream.

So keep blaming me for the fact that SGI is a cult, Greg. Take no responsibility for the modus operandi of SGI. Keep pretending that *your* SGI is a different organization, really, than the one that has broken the hearts and warped the minds of so many. *Your* SGI is not a cult. Your own special private self-invented fantasy-insulated SGI is not a cult, Greg. Not a cult.

Night night.

Lisa Jones

Hi Lisa - I have nothing to refute from your website. I'm not interesting in defending SGI from your accusations of being a cult. I believe that THAT is an individual process members and ex-members will have to face within their own lives.

My "psycho" analogy was aimed at illustrating that I believe cultism is a funtion of the person as much as the org. This is why cults will never run out of culties, they're out there waiting to be embraced by the "family". Reading into your misinterpretation of my analogy it would be easy to think you take no responsibility for being a major cult member Lisa. You in fact admit you were a propagandist in SGI.

For every abuser there is an abused mate...

I just think your site is ugly. To me, it is the painful cry of someone who is looking for someone else to blame. Take this as you well.

When you shut down the original Buddhajones I and many others assumed SGI had "done something to you". It took me a long time to realize you just wanted to be a bigger fish in the "SGI is a cult!" pond. Well, you must be so proud - you're in the Forbes article.

I've previously felt appreciation for your work, and thought I liked you personally. I realize now I never knew you. Fact is, you've been much closer to the top of the Gakkai than I ever will be, and for that you know better than I about SGI cultishness.

I'm simply saying your site is ugly and your selfishness is just - disappointing. That's all, nothing more.

Having said that, realize that's not that bad in the bigger picture. If you were an artist I would be within my rights to say a certain painting sucked. That's different than calling you a shitty artist. It doesn't mean I truly dislike you because, I truly don't know you.

I hope you get what it is you're seeking.

Rev. Greg

Hi Greg. Apparently you have nothing but personal slurs to direct at me and my web site. People who recognize the cultishness and abusive tendencies of SGI are just like psychopaths and druggies? Please. You'd be more convincing if you could offer some (any) refutation of the information and opinions posted at SokaCult.com. But you can't. You can only diss me. Boohoo.

SGI smears its critics. SGI fibs to deceive members and would-be members. SGI keeps secrets, especially financial secrets, from its own members. SGI initiates and sponsors campaigns to aggrandize Daisaku Ikeda. SGI "reinterprets" Nichiren Buddhism to manipulate SGI members and suit its own aims. Call SGI a cult or call it something else, Greg, these are the facts.

You say: "One way to keep from becoming a cultie is to know what you know, and be honest about what you don’t know, honest at least with yourself." It's obvious to me that you don't know as much about cults as you think you do. I highly recommend the book "Bounded Choice" by Janja Lalich. Or "Prophetic Charisma" by Len Oakes.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
Lisa Jones