Reverend Greg

All right, I think that a little background on me might be in order to understand my repies.
I'm relatively new to Buddhism proper, and I've learned all that I know from my teacher and mentor, Rev. Greg Dilley. I'm in the Marines now and for the past few years, I have had a spiritual calling, resulting in my being ordained. I believe whole-heartedly in human potential and believe that once we reach the capacity of our full potential, there will be nothing that we cannot do.

So, when I post, I mostly speak from my knowledge in this aspect, which, I believe, is very similar to Buddhism, but maybe not quite on track. Because of my ordination and my overwhelming desire to be a good and "holy" man, I somewhat see myself as a warrior priest similar to the old days in Japan. This is mainly because I gave my word to be a warrior for my country and I must stick with that until my contract ends and I can claim only the "priest" title.

Jussi, "It is not human behaviour to threaten, to attack, to intimidate and humilate."

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong here. If history has proved anything, it is that the human race is a race of warmongering, greedy savages who only look to better their own foothold in the world. Sadly, this is true. According to Christianity and Judaism, two of the major religions, the very first human child born was also the first murdere -- of his brother, no less. Even in the recorded history of the planet, i.e. The Roman Empire, the Vikings, Australia (which started as a country of exiled criminals), and the dreaded Soviet Union. Our history is full of people and civilazations which have thrived on violence and hostility.
On the contrary, it is also human nature to be kind, and generous, and be a Buddha, in general. However, it takes much more work and an very strong sense of devotion to do so. It is human nature to take the easy route.

Rev. Caleb Perkins, ninja and warrior priest

"In general" uh... thanks? No really, thanks for reading Big Fat Dude.

Jussi - I really sincerely understand what you are saying and wish to respond to where I believe our disconnect really lies...

I believe you feel I have a responsibility to condemn the acts spoken of in my blog. I sense that you feel that if I am not outwardly condemning the acts, I defacto approve of them.

As an author, and as a minister I disagree. I feel I have the right to explore aspects of my own thought process without adhering to cliche and socially acceptable societal value judgements.

In otherwords, I do not feel responsible to prove my "correct social attitude" in my writings and further more the subject of my approval or disapproval of what American's are doing to Iraqi prisoners is of no concern to this current blog.

Jussi, I hope this makes sense. Please seek to understand this point.

Rev. Greg - ninja

Eventually in war, all rules of morality are off. The point of war is to beat another society into submission and make them succumb to your will. If that's the point of war, and I think it is, you have to break the will of the people.

This prisoner abuse reminds me a little of the 'Breaker Morant' story. Harry 'Breaker' Morant was an Australian convicted of 'murdering' some enemy prisoners in the Boer war in 1902. 100 years later, a lot of Australians still have problems with how someone could be convicted of 'murdering' an enemy soldier during a war. Aren't you 'supposed' to kill them?

I'm not a veteran myself, so I don't really know how war is. But in the movie 'The Fog of War', Robert McNamara, the architect of the Vietnam war, says that wars are too complicated for people to truly understand. That's what the term 'fog of war' means; war takes on a life of it's own and sometimes it's uncontrollable. BTW, that movie was absolutely *fantastic* and I think everybody should see it. If there's anybody who knows about the nastiness of war, it's Robert McNamara.

I'm still pretty pissed that our dimwit president has let the war genie out of the bottle, but he did and we have to let the people that are fighting and dieing in Iraq do their job. What's going on here isn't 'new'; it's a part of every war. My wife's grandfather stole all kinds of stuff from dead Germans. In fact, I have a gold pocketwatch that was 'liberated' from some poor dead german.

Here's another quote from William Tecumseh Sherman about war:
"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over."
-William Tecumseh Sherman

BTW, I guess I should introduce myself. I'm the husband of one of Rev. Greg's friends, Danna Fruetel. My wife showed me this thread and she thought I might agree with what rev. greg had to say on this subject. In general, I do :).

oops I did it again (Britney Spears)....
I meant to start saying :
Greg et al.................
late night typo :(
Jussi.

Gerg et al;
I have not been called warm and fuzzy before..how nice!
I am rather surprised at the level of hostility here though that is directed towards those who are agians war and all that entails.
Yes it is a fact that attrocities happen when there is war. But does that make it right?
It is not right either to say that it is human behaviour and let it go.
It is not human behaviour to threaten, to attack, to intimidate and humilate. That is more a part of humans which comes from lower states of life.
We ought to aspire to be better than that and by not condemning such acts we are condoning them.
The Daishonin in His pivotal thesis the Rissho Ankoku Ron desrcibes the age we are living in and He was so right. The first few pages could have been written right now.
Should we just accept that it is normal and natural for us to coomit attrocitities or should condemn them and seek for change.
I vote for the latter.
And I do think it is possible through the power of the Dharma of Nam Myoho renge kyo.
In the age of Kosenrufu such things can not happen.
Best, Jussi.

You had to bring up Nanking. Nanking is at the very end of human behavior and is a testimont of what men will do once given permission.

Rev. Caleb, excellent reply. Thank you from writing from the war zone. I am chanting for your protection everyday. That mortor incident is just waaayyy too cool... I'm not sure what I would have said after that... how about "well THAT'S a helluva thing"

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

For anyone that thinks our conduct in a state of war is barbaric I refer them to the book, "The Rape of Nanking," by Iris Chang. Once you read it, it will put our American child's play torture in proper perspective.

Keep in mind, if it were Americans in capativity, the treatment would have been far worse - titure is an art form in there. This treatment doesn't bother me at all.

Charles

Uh,

People kill, torture and hurt each other in situations other than war. Child physical and sexual abuse,domestic violence are some of the issues I encounter regularly in my pediatric practice.

I even had the experience of a death threat from a couple of patients last fall. This changed my whole approach and attitude about safety and security.

Growing up in a middle class community in Chicago where gang violence (yes, I am African American) only prepared me somewhat for the violence I encounter in the community I live in today (Modesto). Several murders happening just a few blocks away from my home. Dealing with hazmat situations with Methamphetamine cooking houses. Those are just a couple of things that happen with regularity in the community I live in.

I'm not sure what comfortable communities you all live in. I may not be close to death by mortar and other large weapons. However in the place I live in I am not immune to it.

It's why I often chant daily with a sense of urgency and commitment.

Violence is not isolated to war.

Dr. Mimi

Jussi,
I usually read posts and not really respond, but after reading your stream of comments, I finally feel compelled to post something of my own. Let me ask you something. How long have you been in a war zone? How many times have you been shot at? How many times has a mortar landed 20 feet away from you while you were smoking and the only thing that saved you from being torn apart by shrapnel was the fact that the 20 year old ordinance was a dud? How many times have you stared into a person's eyes while he was thanking you and praising you all the while prepared to whip your rifle around and shoot him when he tried to kill you?
The fact is, the military does do psychological screening, just in a different manner than movies portray, i.e. talking one-on-one with a shrink. The minute that any service member displays any signs of instability, he/she gets yanked and put on hold in all aspects.
The sad fact is, jussi, and I'm sure that you'll be sad to hear this, is that war is a void in the normality of our lives that we call "reality". Walking around in a free, warm country like the US or UK, all you have to worry about is paying bills and eating and sleeping. Anyone who kills is a murderer and is condoned, being labeled a monster. In a war zone, however, killing another human being is recommended and encouraged. Is this odd? No, it's the JOB of the service member; it's what they get payed for.
So, sit back and think, "how can people torture and humiliate other people?" The answer is, because they're in a situation in which up is down and down is up, and normal is 9000 miles away.
The fact is that the humiliation that was done to the prisoners is the only "normal" that one can expect from a war environment. Anger, fear, boredom, these are all factors that can lead to the humiliation that has exploded all over the news. And to be quite honest, only people who live in nice, warm homes with their loved ones sitting across the dinner table from them every night trully care about the pictures.
War is an abnormality all in its own respect. It's when every morale we hold dear gets thrown out of the window only to be picked up again when the service members return to a "normal" environment.
I'll have to agree with those who say, "it's human nature," because it trully is. It's just another step in the complete topsy-turvy world of war. The only way to get rid of such "atrocities" is to completely outlaw war.
By the way, jussi. Of all the enemies that we've fought in the past 20 or so wars, not one of them was governed by the Geneva Conventions, even if we were.

Great comments by BFD and Andy. Yes, Andy, it would have been nice if our American troops had lived up to our principles. It's just a damn shame, and we'll pay for it...

Big Fat Dude, great perspective check, though one thing bothers me greatly about what you wrote.

I'm a NINJA and *I* don't have a trophy skull!

B^(

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

I'll chime in closer to Jussi's POV than not, although I write as an American, one who sincerely believes that the United States, in secular terms, is the best and brightest hope for mankind (which opinion I doubt that Jussi shares).

While I agree with Greg's point that we all (possessing the same ten world potential) could be capable of such actions, nevertheless I am appalled that these folks succumbed. As Jussi pointed out (paraphrasing), just because we have the potential does not excuse the actualization of that potential.

As an American, believing as I do that our system and principles contain the potential for a better world, I hate that these Americans have so sullied the name of my country, and dishonored their fellow service men and women. I believe that we need to hold ourselves to the highest standards, regardless of what happens in the rest of the world.

And no, I'm no pacifist. I believe there are times when the exercise of force is justified and necessary. Never mind what I think of the current exercise. That's not my point.

My point is that these particular human beings exercised their baser human potential to the detriment of the country I hold dear, and I believe that, while it's okay (as Greg does) to understand them, in this case they must be held accountable in every way possible, and that includes the command and control structure, as high as that needs to go.

Just my opinion.

Cheers!

Andy

I'm totally perplexed by all the bad publicity the these stupid pictures have caused. I ticked off some of my friends when I said that I thought that the pictures of the torture and humilation were no big deal. I guess I was supposed to be absolutely shocked and disgusted that such bad things could happen in a war.

William Sherman said it best with his famous quote, "War is Hell". What's really getting me mad is now a lot of people that were in favor of going to war in Iraq now seem 'shocked' that things like humilation and torture could happen in this war. In war, humanity and grace go flying out the window. War is about killing, humilation, death, starvation and disease. General Sherman had it right; war IS hell and we humans need to avoid it at all costs.

I was against going to war in Iraq. I'm a history buff, so maybe I was looking at the Iraq war situation from a different point of view from most people. I fully expected this kind of thing to happen. In fact, I'm a little surprised that the atrocities haven't been worse. In 1943, Life magazine ran a photo of a young blond woman admiring a japanese 'trophy' skull that her boyfriend sent to her from Guadalcanal. The photo can be seen here; http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Mar/65.html This same page also shows the severed head of a Japanese soldier decorating a tank, which also appeared in Life magazine. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN WAR!! THAT'S WHY WAR SHOULD BE THE ABSOLUTE _LAST_ RESORT WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE HAS FAILED!!

I guess this makes me sound like a callous hillbilly, but when we declared war against Iraq, we were saying goodbye to human dignity and HELLO to events like the prisoner abuse. I think it's impossible to be in a war AND try to preserve human dignity. The two are incompatible. The longer and bloodier the war gets, the more atrocities we're going to see. In 1945 at the close of WW2, the USA was dropping napalm on japanese civilians nightly. Curtis LeMay, the USA general that organized these attacks later said 'good thing we won that war or we'd all be war criminals'. LeMay had a good insight on the true nature of war....

Just loving your replies Jussi, all warm and fuzzy. It's making me feel quite lovy-dovy. Those victims, btw, and hardened combat-proven soldiers. The Americans better be careful to guard against a prison break or a riot. You think what our young little psychos are doing is bad, if the Iraqis turn the table there's going to be body parts flying. The Iraqis practice torture as a part of their religion.

It's WAR Jussi, it's all bad from the very start. Neither myself nor anyone is justifying anything.

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

Eddie;
In all of this what concerns me most is that there seems a tendency on the part of the Americans here to defend the guilty and making excuses. I point out that when the shoe is on the other foot what happens to that understanding and compassion.
No-one here has said a word about the victims...these Iraqis who have been humiliated and tortured be it physical or mental. No-one even appears to feel sorry about it.
To say that the Geneva Convention is meaningless as no-one pays any attention to it does not make it right to treat humans in the manner as these soldiers....I hesitate to use the word children. They are old enough to think for themsleves to join the military, they are old enough to marry and take responsibility in society but when they are "naughty" they are then just children who do not know better?
The fact that in war attrocities happen does not make it right. Your soldiers are volunteer careerists. There has been no draft so none of them are forced to go there.
A lesson here is surely that the US (and British) military ought to do more psychological testing of candidates before allowing them to join as these people are not psychologically able to cope with their job it seems to me (not that I applaud being a soldier in any case. I believe in absolute pacifism).
Jussi.

Eddie; With all due respect I do wonder if you people were not so in defense of these kids (?) actions were they not Americans.

>>I can only speak for myself. I don't care whether these kids are Ameicans or not. What I defend is their Buddha nature; and eventhough they have commited abhorrent acts, they are deserving of some measure of compassion, Jussi. Even Shakyamuni never stopped praying for Devadatta's happiness. And he made several attempts of Shakyamuni's life.

>>I don't condone or excuse the acts of kids. I'm just saying that we should not be surprised that some of the children societies send to war commit unspeakable acts.

I do agree that they are easily manipulated but somehow the tone here is that we should not expect better.

>>No, Jussi. We should always expect better. But when better does not happen, we should find a constructive way to correct the situation, rather than pointing fingers and condemning.

To suggest that in a war situation torture is bound ot happen is also lending credence to these acts.

>>Hardly. Historically speaking, torture has always happened and continues to happen. It is also likely that torture will continue to happen, as long as war continues to happen. And no amount of moral pontificating is going ameliorate the situation.

>>Furthermore, the only way not to have our soldiers commit such evil acts is eliminate war. I.E. if you don't want your kids to be brutal, don't create situations where brutality is possible.

There is no reason torture should happen.

>>Granted. But it happens nonetheless. War is a fucked thing, to begin with; and it's the apex of naivetee to think torture, or any other bad thing, won't happen in that situation. It's just the way war is.

Do they not teach in the military anything to these 'kids' before they are thrown in at the deep end? Have they never heard of Geneva Convention and the international rules for treatment of prisoners.

>>The Geneva Convention has never stopped anyone from anywhere from commiting torture. The Viet Cong tortured US prisoner and the US tortured Viet Cong prisoners. Besides, there's no way to know how any individual soldier is going to react
in similar situations

Frankly i am rather shocked ot see so many people here run almost to the defense of these acts thus minimizing the wrong.

>>With all due respect, Jussi, I'm not convinced anybody here is defending the acts or minimizing the wrong.

The 'kids' held at Guantamo Bay were also brainwashed yet not many rise ot their defense for whatever they had been involved with.
I sense a double standard here.

>>If you do sense a double standard, it's not on my part. I surely don't condone the acts commited by those held at Guantanamo. But, at the same time, I have compassion for their plite as human beings. Something the moral absolutists of this sorely need to learn.

Regards,
Eddie

I think the good rev. is getting it at a sort of "there, but for the grace of karma..." idea.

I am uncomfortable with portrayals of Hitler as an unspeakable, inhuman monster. He was just as much "human" as I am. The potential for Hitlerhood exists within me every bit as much as the potential for Buddhahood.

If I put Hitler, and the American prison guards in a box labaled "Beneath contempt" and believe that myself and my fellows are not capable of such behavior, I make such behavior, more, not less likely.

Thanks, Michael

Eddie; With all due respect I do wonder if you people were not so in defense of these kids (?) actions were they not Americans. I do agree that they are easily manipulated but somehow the tone here is that we should not expect better.
We should of course.
To suggest that in a war situation torture is bound ot happen is also lending credence to these acts. There is no reason torture should happen. Do they not teach in the military anything to these 'kids' before they are thrown in at the deep end? Have they never heard of Geneva Convention and the international rules for treatment of prisoners.
Frankly i am rather shocked ot see so many people here run almost to the defense of these acts thus minimizing the wrong.
The 'kids' held at Guantamo Bay were also brainwashed yet not many rise ot their defense for whatever they had been involved with.
I sense a double standard here.
Jussi.

Jussi,

I think you missunderstand what people are saying. Nobody is trying to justify the torture of the Iraqi prisoners by the guards. Sure, people have choices; and it is easy to preach about what was the right thing for these kids to have done.

However, your argument assumes that you are dealing with completely rational persons with the maturity to step back from a rather surreal situation. That's what war is. It's a surreal, pathological situation.

Relatedly, the situation is further complicated by the fact the guards were kids. It is a known fact that 18-year-olds, teenagers basically, are not yet completely rational people. They tend to act before they think which is why they are highly prized by the military. They are easy to manipulate and brainwash.

You put people like that in a situation like the Iraqi War things like torture are bound to happen.

It is naive to think that such things are impossible. War is a dirty business.

Peace,
Eddie

Greg wrote:
"Humiliation, torture, whatever, it's all human function"

Call me naive all you want however you appear to me to minimize the value of controlling oneself as a humanbeing.
As well as having the capacity to do such things as you mention above we also have the capacity to not do them. We always have a choice and the choice those soldiers picked is obviously the wrong one.
One could apply what you wrote to Saddam Hussein and his men just as well. How would that look? It is ok to humiliate and torture because it is a human function? Are you equally defending what Saddam did or any other despot and torturer in the world? Just because the attacker is western does that make a difference?
It is barbaric. All war is. It is not part of human nature if we make up our minds to behave like decent humanbeings.
There is a great difference between capacity and taking action.
Best, Jussi.

Thanks Greg

Appreciate the tone of your response without quite understanding
I really would like to understand where you are coming from - perhaps you could explain "kyojitsu for dummies" in an exoteric kind of way?

Seems we agree we need a lot of Nam myoho renge kyo

Best Regards

Ivan

Ivan, thanks for reading. I read the article you pointed to, though I read it badly. I don't like the way the author writes, but no matter.

It was not my purpose or intent to defend anything in my last blog. I am compelled to explore the demensions of kyojitsu, exchanging the empty and intangible with the full and real. I only wish to understand the true nature of Heaven, Earth and Man. If you were to understand the meaning behind Rev. - Shidoshi, this would make a little more sense.

The world is the world, man is who he is. We are evolving, but much more slowly than we would have ourselves think. Having lived in the demensions of violence and fear, I understand how each can be transformed into the other, depending on the need at the time. If this sounds like I approve of violence, that would be like saying "Ya know, I really think nature is a good idea".

I apologize if I sound esoteric and unlucid (is that a word?)

Maybe this will make you feel warm and fuzzy. I have completely shut down emotionally in terms of my political beliefs. No man who makes the decision to wage war should in turn profit from it. And no one thing is more important at this time than voting George W. Bush out of an office he didn't rightfully win.

Chant only Nam Myoho Renge Kyo,

Rev. Greg Shidoshi

Hi Greg

I normally immensely enjoy your site and I'm sure you are a sincere compassionate Buddhist but it seems to me you are currently making an undeserving impression.
Thinking that I might have got it wrong, I have read and re-read your article however the image that you seem to be projecting on this topic is of a person who is prepared to unconditionally defend psychopathic killers because they are on our side.
I know this can't be right.
Maybe it would help if you could comment on William Rivers Pitt's recent address which addresses the same issue

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/050504A.shtml

Best Regards
Ivan

Those links were the sordid pictures; this one delineates the sordid story behind them...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

As Dr. Mimi suggests, it all looks like official business. Nothing like a huge organization to bring out the worst havoc we humans carry within us... time for lotsa daimoku (as if it wasn't always the time...)

Peace and love indeed,

Brian

I appreciate your naivety Jussi. By even using the word "barbaric" you've taken your first step down the road to denial and disassociation. Atrocities in wartime and even other times only need the proper context, justification and permission. We're all capable, in the end.

The CIA handbook on torture is an interesting read. It puts this issue in a little more "goal oriented" context. Humiliation, torture, whatever, it's all human function, all Ten, Chi, Jin.

Rev. Greg, Shidoshi

Naturally we all have same capabilities within us and thus have the ability to give in to base barbaric emotions. But do we?
Part of living as a humanbeing in society surely is to learn what is appropriate behaviour and what is not.
Also to say that this kind of thing could happen to anybody I feel is not an accurate way pf putting it. Most of us are in control of our emotions and also know right from wrong.
These soldiers on the otherhand are programmed to treat the people in Iraq as enemy. So they commit these acts no doubt hyped up on a kind of adrenalin high. I am sure peer influence plays a part in it and the way people can try and top up on whatever someone else has done and so the acts get worse and worse.
But really we should all know this is not right and there are no excuses for putting reins on an elderly lady and riding her!
That is just sick behaviour and the people involved must not be allowed to get away with some warning or such.
If the shoe was on the other foot imagine the outrage.
I suspect that many play down these incidents because they might also see these Iraqis as enemy almost non human. Instead of seeing them as mothers, fathers, sone and daughters who have the same hopes and dreams and aspirations as we do.
Jussi.

You know Greg,it would be really easy for me to be angry and want to condemn those kids who humiliated the Iraqui prisoners. But, as you say,
we have the Ten Worlds within usp; and under the right circumstances, we all could act the way these kids did.

Part of the reason these troops did what they did is because they're kids. Kids can be quite insensitive to other people, even brutal. Viet Nam vet and author, Phillip Caputo, in his book, A Rumor of War, documented that did not realize "just how brutal an 18-year-old boy could be" until he saw one in his platoon riddle a Viet Cong corpse with bullets, emptying his rifle's magazine. Basically, you are talking about teenagers being trained, handed a loaded gun, and sent into what amounts to a sociopathological situation - a war.

A friend of mine has a son who recently returned from Iraq. He was in the 4th Infantray Division. She tells me that he is kind of freaked out, undergoing therapy, and talks to her a lot about having seen and done he never has even dreamed of.

I am therefore not really surprised about what has happened. It's one of the tragedies of war. I makes brutes of us all.

Peace & love,
Eddie

I agree - and this is the underlining of my post, and much of what I have to say about Buddhism, that everything we seek to understand is inside each of us. Our "path of self-discovery" includes potential aspects of other's paths as well.

It's just too easy to point a finger and say "what morons, what criminals" or even worse -"MONSTERS!" or "ANIMALS!" which we do to disassociate ourselves from aspects of our own humanity that we are not comfortable with.

As Buddhists chanting the mystic law of the universe it's my hope we all take a moment to ponder "do I have this same potential? Is there some aspect of my life that is comprised of this same fear and ignorance?"

Thanks for reading and replying.

Rev. G

We may be driven by fear. However I think in this instance, anger and stupidity may have a large role as well.

Dr. Mimi

I never meant to say that what was going on was a rite of passage, rather it's my feeling that it's all connected to a "fear response". We as humans are driven by fear.

Rev. Greg

I dunno Greg, somehow making this out to be a young GI's rite of passage doesn't play with me. I don't think these incidents could have happened without someone higher up on the chain of command condoning it.

We're supposed to have Armed Forces with integrity and high skill. At least that is what is portrayed over and over in commercials, promos and the news.

It would sit better if there wasn't so much play out there about the US having some great moral authority to bring Democracy to the Middle East.

We are the same democracy that in the last century condoned lynching, spraying children with firehoses and putting people in jail fighting for equality. Much didn't change until photos of that behavior were disseminated throughout the world.

Dehumanizing another may be human. Just doesn't quite further winning the hearts and minds in the world. Unless of course the real reason we are in the Middle East is for the Oil and not for the people.

Just another dumb 'Merican stunt that has really pissed off the wrong folks.