Robin Beck

>>> A while back I recall a discussion we had about whether the wholesome states emerge or arise - At that time I think I was arguing that they emerge with the subsiding of the unwholesome, while you I think were arguing that they could arise through active cultivation. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that either of us was wrong - that they are different approaches. Practically speaking, I think the approach you seem to recommend, generating wholesome states through wholesome practices, is the more effective. Most of us stuck with a discursively inclined mind may find it easier to crowd out the unwholesome states with wholesome rather than suppress or preempt the unwholesome.

Actually, I think you are right. There are 4 proper exertions:

1. Prevention: Keeping the bad mental states from arising.
2. Letting Go: Getting rid of the bad ones that have already arisen.
3. Cultivation: Causing the good ones to arise.
4. Maintaining: Keeping the good ones that have arisen.

The question is how to prevent or block the bad mental states from arising in the first place? It seems like steps 2 and three are both how to that. Let go of them if they arise; and also preemptively crowd them out by cultivating wholesome states.

I am not too sure about avoiding all situations that cause, say the 5 hindrances, to arise, is practical. Should the Serbs and Croats avoid contact; and ignore one another, lest enmity arises? We do not need to cultivate the hindrances though. So many do that. They seek out that which annoys them, and pick fights. I have done that. I think we want to avoid repressing them too; otherwise they surface in unexpected ways. Some things, we should likely avoid. I do not read porn, get drunk, or hang out in bars and gambling joints.

Maybe we can leave it here for now. Answers come with patience. I need to close most of the open dialogs and move on to another topic.

>>> R, have you considered organizing your stuff into a linear form?

Q, I am sort of trying to do that at 'Gongyo on Line' and 'Ninth Consciousness.' At some point, the entries there will be in order, via re-dating. At some point, maybe I might try a web-site with an index.

"Gongyo on Line" goes more to the practical, "Ninth Consciousness" is more theory.

R, have you considered organizing your stuff into a linear form? There are so many great things I've gleaned from you, from your lists, your explanations of the sources of words and concepts - but its been piecemeal over the years and hard to get a grasp on the bigger picture you work with. If you were to put something like that together, I'm sure a lot of people would find it interesting. I would.

Thank you for pointing out the technical difference between "emerge" and "arise". I will keep that in mind.

"Another way to do that might be to cultivate wholesome or meritorious mental states."

A while back I recall a discussion we had about whether the wholesome states emerge or arise - At that time I think I was arguing that they emerge with the subsiding of the unwholesome, while you I think were arguing that they could arise through active cultivation. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that either of us was wrong - that they are different approaches. Practically speaking, I think the approach you seem to recommend, generating wholesome states through wholesome practices, is the more effective. Most of us stuck with a discursively inclined mind may find it easier to crowd out the unwholesome states with wholesome rather than suppress or preempt the unwholesome.

Your comments and posts have touched off a profound reflection on how I conceptualize practice that I would love to discuss, but its too much to put into a short comment. Thanks.

>>> On the other hand, perhaps the two concepts are distinguished in the sense that avoidance is to not put yourself in situations where unwholesome thoughts arise, and the latter is a riff on the approach I describe above.

Perhaps avoidance It can also mean preemption? Another way to do that might be to cultivate wholesome or meritorious mental states. I think that is part of what Shamatha is about; in addition to developing tangible skills.

The four intangibles, the ten paramis and six paramitas are example of meritorious mental states we can cultivate; or cause to arise. Instead of having to to let go of enmity that has arisen; we can cultivate metta / maitri to preempt enmity.

BTW, I use 'arise' to mean something different than 'emerge.' The Chinese have distinct terms for those; a word read 'jiyu' is emerge, iirc. Not sure about Pali / Sanskrit. Anyway, acquired or borrowed Merits {punya} arise; innate Virtues {guna} are un- or dis-covered and emerge.

I can reopen those earlier comments if you wish.

Comment on the present entry -
Pahana - Samvara - would you say that in practice, these two things are the same? I learned from a meditation teacher that when unwholesome thoughts arise - or any conceptualizations, for that matter - to acknowledge and then let go - ie. when thoughts about the post meditation meal arise, acknowledge "I am thinking about lunch" and then turn back to counting breaths, or whatever method of concentration is being utilized, simply letting go of the thought rather than trying to actively suppress it.

On the other hand, perhaps the two concepts are distinguished in the sense that avoidance is to not put yourself in situations where unwholesome thoughts arise, and the latter is a riff on the approach I describe above.

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Several months ago, I read an article in the NY Times about a Zen master who started visiting a psychotherapist because he was having all kinds of bouts with depression and suicidal thoughts. The article obviously took the approach that a meditation master ought not have these kinds of problems - and I found myself thinking the same thing, except that I was thinking this guy had spent years blanking his mind avoiding the stuff that is churning below, so its no wonder he was having these breakdowns later in life.

The meditation manuals from Zhiyi all include a round of confession and repentance before getting into the actual practices - Zhiyi taught that one needs to continue the confession and repentance until the mind is stilled - whether it takes a day or years or a whole life time. My understanding is that Zhiyi devoted many years to confession and repentance.

You've written lately about the importance of confession and repentance and I just want to point out a little more explicitly how critical those practices are to the more proper meditational practices, especially where there is avoidance and suppression of unwholesome thoughts involved. Using these methods as a means of avoiding painful or uncomfortable experiences could be added to the discussion on dangers, I think. Its a fine line between suppressing the arising of unwholesome thoughts that lead down that path of cause and effect to their perpetuation and using those methods to avoid the effects of past karma.

Hi R - Happy New Year!
Thanks for responding to my comment in the earlier post. Moving, catching up with family and friends, recharging - all those end of the year things kept me off the computer for a while - Anyway, Comments closed in the earlier entry, so I just wanted to ask a little more about something you wrote:

"None of these benefits of Shamatha awaken us, IMO. They provide merits and skills. The way to awaken is, IMO, via the four frameworks of Mindfulness. That is the way we glean self understanding."

This is something I've been thinking about a good deal - in my experience, and I may be doing something wrong in my method - but Shamatha, no matter how "perfectly" I do it, I cannot get around that it is an exercise in abstraction from "reality". It is only when I sit an concentrate on breath, or my heart beat, or the chanting of the daimoku that I experience the resolution of the dichotomies - subject-object, mind-material, consciousness-unfiltered experience, etc.

When I write this and read it over, it sounds trite, but so far, its the most profound experience I've had and what I practice to achieve and hold.

Thanks for your other comments also. The Dharma/Dharani conection never occurred to me. That makes profound sense.