May 13, 2009
Reply to Holte
For some reason, Chris Holte seems determined to drag my name though the mud. I am not going to speculate publicly as to why. I think I have made my position clear. The interrogation methods used at Gitmo were degrading and coercive. I do not approve of that. If I were in charge, I would not use those methods. I have read all the memos first hand. Many things that were done were not only degrading; some were intentionally designed to taunt, inflame, and offend Muslims. I do not think this was the best way to do things. That is just me.
I have many other projects I want to work on; which I think are far more important, so I do not want to spend day and night dealing with Holte's personal attacks. That said, it is my studied opinion that none of the methods authorized for use at Gitmo rose to the level of torture or criminal acts. The only one that came close was waterboarding; but that is only semantics. The words water cure, waterboarding, and water torture refer to any of several methods. During WW II, the Japanese used a method that was definitely torture. There are reports that US troops used similar methods to torture Filipinos who collaborated with the Japanese. We won, so our guys were not prosecuted. Moreover, of all the tortures the Japanese committed, water cure was the mildest.
Japanese Water Cure: "The so-called 'water treatment' was commonly used. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process. [sometimes the nose was closed off, so the subject had to breath though the mouth. They had to swallow the water or choke.]"
Or: "A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession. [Sometimes a cloth was used to cover the mouth, to prevent swallowing the water, and force aspiration of water through the nostrils.]"
So one method was forcing water into the stomach to cause severe gastric bloating; the other into the lungs to cause partial drowning . Neither was done at Gitmo. No water entered the stomach or lungs. To say it was even remotely the same is either inept or intellectually dishonest.
Gitmo: "In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth."
More: For each event, six pours of water were permitted per application. The subject was allowed to recover his breathing after each application. The maximum session was 20 minutes. The applications were repeated no more than 6 or times per session. This could be done 5 times in 30 days; no more than twice per week. So the maximum water pours per month were about 180 to 210. This was monitored closely with doctors present. They even counted the pours. That is where the number 183 came from. There is no evidence that the guidelines were violated once established by the Bibey Memo.
By the way, head dunking is another form of water cure. The subject's head is held underwater, lifted out, and the process was repeated. When I was a kid, I had that done to me as part of a swimming course hazing. None of us thought is was torture or even abusive. However. some forms of dunking, such at Witch Trials, were torture. Sometimes, it is all in the details.
Finally, if I were in charge, then I would have violated their religious freedom by subjecting them to metta-wave techniques that stimulate the empathy centers in the brain. That said, I am not one to second guess the people who prevented a repeat of 9-11, and it looks like several such plots were indeed foiled.
My best guess is that is the coercive methods probably were not necessary. However, I am not an interrogation expert. Moreover, I am confident the people who made the legal decisions were sincere and acting in good faith. There are opinions on both sides. Some prefer to err on the side of avoiding an appearance of torture. Others prefer to err on the side of preventing terrorist attacks.
I am also convinced that Congress Critters on both sides knew what was being done. Most of them likely agreed to err on the side of preventing another attack. Now, some want to use 20:20 hindsight to fix blame for any mistakes or excesses and prosecute people for legitimate differences of legal opinion. That is about nothing but politics.
I am not opening comments on this. I just do want to get bogged down in a food fight. If you want, write me privately and if I approve of it, I will post the comment. If it is kind, I will post it, even if you think I am wrong. If it is nasty, even if you agree with me, I will not post it. Threats will be taken seriously and forwarded to my lawyer.
nichibek@gmail.com
Posted by rbeck at May 13, 2009 02:58 PM