Robin Beck

I do wonder if Kumurajiva's people might have deliberately chosen homophones for transliterating Sanskrit terms that had a double entendre?

On the homophonic transliterations; I think it would render the Dharanis into gibberish to consider the meaning of the Kanji Script used to write them. But some words like Shakamuni/shakuson could have an intended double meaning; though i doubt it.

Again, words like Shakamuni, Namu, etc., are borrowed sanskrit words written with kanji. The kanji were chosen for sound; not meaning.

It does not surprise me at all that some seek and find esoteric meaning in those kanji. However, I think this might be "meaningful coincidence" -- but not what was intended by the translators.

This was certainly not the intent of the authors of the Sanskrit originals. Nichiren referred to Shingon Masters who took too much license with their reading of the Sutras as "thieves of the Dharma."

I think we should balance the original sanskrit meaning with creative readings of Kanji and be cautious.

Also, Hello, I can't find a single source to support your reading of Shakyamuni. That does not mean it is entirely wrong.

Hi Robin,

En (閻) is the village gate. Village points to inhabitants, communities.

Bu (浮) means float, suspend.
Dai (提) means to lift, carry, hold up.
Budai (浮提) means to support, like the land mass that supports the inhabitants on earth.

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Mu (牟) means to seek.
Ni (尼) means to approach, to get closer, to become acquainted with.

Shakya represents the truth of the Dharma {Law}.
Muni is a "person" who seeks, approaches, and becomes acquainted with the Dharma.

One {Muni} who has become acquainted with the Law {Shakya} is then called Shakyamuni.

Rev. Ryuei on
Nam or Namu? Does it really matter?

"The two Chinese characters that begin Odaimoku are pronounced Na and Mu when they stand alone. The first character means "South" and the second character signifies a negation (as in "Does a dog have Buddha-Nature?" "MU!"). Those two characters were chosen by the Chinese to transliterate the Sanskrit word "Namah", they were not chosen for their meaning. In China the two characters are chanted as Namo (as in Namo Amito Fo). In Japan, they are pronounced Namu, unless it becomes convenient to drop the "u" sound, which happens when Odaimoku is chanted at a fast pace."

Most of what you post makes sense. This does not to me, as of now.

What does Mu Ni mean?

Also: ichien budai = jambudvipa

Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism:

Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

"As Nichiren states, namu derives from Sanskrit, and Myoho-renge-kyo comes from Chinese. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is, therefore, not simply a Japanese phrase, but a Japanese reading of a Sanskrit and Chinese phrase. In this sense, it contains aspects of the languages of three countries in which Mahayana Buddhism spread. According to Nichiren's treatise The Entity of the Mystic Law, Nan-yüeh and T'ien-t'ai of China and Dengyo of Japan recited the invocation meaning devotion to the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law, or Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" -- SGI Dictionary

NST even agrees on this one.

Allow me to share the rationale for the kanji (南無) which represents Namu.

Na (南) or south refers to the southern continent (Jambudvipa). That points to the physical world we live in, or our body.

Mu (無) or nothingness refers to the non-material or spiritual aspect of the world we live in, or our mind.

So you see, Namu (南無) in a nutshell refers to all, the physical and the spiritual; everything, without exclusion.

So, chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo is a conviction that all is Myoho Renge Kyo.

Chanting also means to speak the truth of the Sutras. And that, is the broader meaning of Shakyamuni.

Therefore, Namu Myoho Renge Kyo means to be one in both body (physical) & mind (spiritual) with Myoho Renge Kyo.

In other words, a whole hearted dedication of both our body and mind.

Also, there are many sankrit loan words in sino-japanese.

hyakushibutsu = pratyeka buddha

rasetsu = rakshasa

monju shi li = Manjushiri

namu = namah, nama, namo {I think the kanji for namu means south not.}

maka = maha {in maka shikan}

mandara = mandala or mandharva

birushana = vairochana

The dharanis are all transliterated.

These are tranliterations. The kanji mimics or approximates the sound of the sanskrit.

The meaning of the kanji is moot in these cases -- except in a very arcane way.

Actually, I have not been able to find nny antecedents honzon with the 4 Bodhisattvas. So I think including the 4 BOE was unheard of. Unheard of can also mean rare or even secret.

"By the late thirteenth century, the practice hall of the cloister Ryozen-in at Yokawa is said to have been adorned with a group of large paintings depicting the assembly of the Lotus Sutra. Centering on a
lifesize image of Sakyamuni Buddha, the configuration included to one side, a jeweled stupa flanked right and left by paintings of the four leaders of the
bodhisattvas of the earth and the bodhisattvas of the provisional teaching, and to the other side, by paintings of other bodhisattvas and great sravaka disciples." -- Stone

This was after Nichiren

"The person who made that painting in 1334 clearly knew of the Isson Shiji Gohonzon like the one presently at Ikegami."

1334 is 52 years removed from Nichiren's death. Can we say with certainty that the painter did saw 5 statues enshrined in Minobusan Kuonji?

Anybody can paint anything if they think that's what the Gosho meant. Fact is, the statue arrangement at Ikegami did not exist while Nichiren was alive. You have to look for definitive proof of the 5 statue arrangements from the time Nichiren was alive. All that was handed down are mandalas.

If Nichiren could draw Aizen and Fudo, why doesn't he draw five statues?

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"Many also say that Nichiren was the first to chant Namu Myoho Renge Kyo. "But of course," we know that is not literally true either. with all due respect, I think you are reading in what you want to be there."

Nichiren wrote that T'ien-t'ai silently practised the Daimoku. So he didn't claim to invent the chanting of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo.

But he was nevertheless the first to advocate the chanting aloud of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo as a daily practice by all and sundry.

Whereas T'ien-t'ai kept the practice to himself. That's the difference.

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"The thing is, similar depictions had appeared before Nichiren, but these were not widely propagated."

Of course, of course. Which is why the five statue arrangements is not at all surprising. It is NOT unheard of.

But the mandala with Namu Myoho Renge Kyo flanked by the four Bodhisattvas, that is unheard of.

I can reopen the other thread if you like. I have looked, and haven't found any source where Shakyamuni means anything other than Sage of the Sakya Tribe -- that is the Buddha. The exceptions being Taisekiji and possibly Honmon Shoshu sources.

That monks would take part of Shakyamuni's name doesn't surprise me at all.

Also, while Nichiren made a point of talking about the Shakyamuni of the Agamas versus the Shakyamuni of the Remote Past; I do not take this to mean two different Buddhas who coincidentally have the same name.

Nichiren also wrote:

"The purpose of the appearance in this world of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, lies in his behavior as a human being." (WND1, p. 852)

i think this clearly refers to the historical example of Gotama a.k.a. Sage of the Sakya Tribe.
If we take the Buddha out of Buddhism, it isn;t really Buddhism any longer. It becomes something else posing as Buddhism.

At any rate, I think it is good that readers are exposed to all the interpretations so we can choose for ourselves.

From an East Asian milieu, when we look at kanjis, it is always the meaning, ideas, and concept which kanjis carry that is important. It comes naturally to us who speak and write kanji. The same kanji can be pronounced in many different ways. Take Shaku (釈) for example. In China, this kanji is pronounced many different ways, but the meaning is still the same. In Japan, it is pronounced two different ways, but the meaning is still the same. In Vietnam it is pronounced "Thich" as in Thich Nhat Hanh. You might have guessed it, Vietnamese monks and nuns, like their East Asian counterparts, also adopt this kanji as their first name, not without good reason. Shaku (釈) is Shakya, which is the Truth of the Dharma which all in the Mahayana wants to develop in themselves and in others.

Of course, those not into kanji may find this strange, or even word play. That is understandable. Such a tradition nevertheless exist, and there is rationale behind it.

Hi Wonder,

The person who made that painting in 1334 clearly knew of the Isson Shiji Gohonzon like the one presently at Ikegami.

For now we shall have to disagree on this. I am not sure why Nichiren wouldn't make himself clear and say what he meant. I just can not accept "he wrote this; but he really meant that" anymore.

Many also say that Nichiren was the first to chant Namu Myoho Renge Kyo. "But of course," we know that is not literally true either.

The thing is, similar depictions had appeared before Nichiren, but these were not widely propagated.

gassho,

robin

BTW. if anyone has anything fresh, I can unlock this thread, just request that in the next one. At this point we are just saying the same thing back & forth. I'll retain an open mind while leaning toward the obvious literal meaning, that Shakamuni flanked by the 4 attendants means just that.

On Establishing the Four Bodhisattvas as the Object of Devotion:

"Now that we have entered the Latter Day of the Law, an object of devotion should be made of the original Buddha flanked by his original attendants, since, according to the Buddha’s golden words, this is the most appropriate time."

It says "Original Buddha" flanked by his Original attendants. And that is Namu Myoho-renge-kyo flanked by the four great bodhisattvas, as shown on Nichiren's mandala.

Shakyamuni Buddha is an integral, but not a central figure on the mandala. Shakyamuni Buddha is there to represent the preaching of the Dharma Flower. Even he is flanking Namu Myoho-renge-kyo, the highest Shakya {Truth}.

Of course, no Goshos in the original kanji ever mentions "Shakyamuni Buddha" attended by the four Bodhisattvas. You may not be aware that Nichiren uses the name "Shakyamuni Buddha" and "Shakuson" in appropriate context, a fact ignored by the SGI dictionary.

From the same Goshos: "Not a single temple in those three countries, however, has ever made an object of devotion of SHAKUSON OF KUON JITSUJO flanked by the bodhisattvas who are his original disciples. Such a thing has never been heard of before."

What a strange thing to say: "Such a thing has never been heard of before....."

But of course, Nichiren meant "Namu Myoho-renge-kyo" flanked by the four bodhisattvas, as shown on his mandala. Such a thing was indeed unheard of before. That is really the purpose of Nichiren's advent.

On Shakamuni.

IIRC, the translator used 6 kanji pronounced -- Sha Ka Mu Ni Bu Tsu -- to "transliterate" the sanskrit Shakyamuni Buddha.

Naturally, these 6 kanji had some native meaning. However, that meaning would not be found in the original sanskrit at all. While teasing it out might be fun, it has no possible significance other than mystic synchronicity; or perhaps, in some cases, the translator may have even intended a pun or homophonic word play.

In fact, deriving meaning from homophonic word play was very common in Ryobu Shinto; which influenced Hokke Shinto. While it is fascinating, I do not see this as a reliable way to interpret the Sutras. It is much too easy to interpolate whatever meaning we wish to see.

This is from Kokugakuin University's "The Encyclopedia of Shinto:"

"As esoteric Buddhism was transmitted to China and Japan, Daikokuten came to be depicted with a pleasant facial expression in place of the fearsome scowl of earlier figures. Further, the development of concepts of shinbutsu shugo (the amalgamation of kami with buddhist deities) from the medieval period on led to the association of Daikoku with the native kami Okuninushi, based on the homophonic resemblance of the Sino-Japanese characters used in their names (Okuni can also be read as daikoku)." -Iwai Hiroshi

Daikoku was originally the Indian deity Mahakala. Belief in this deity (united to the native deity Okuninushi no kami) became widespread in Japan in the middle ages, together with the belief in the deity Ebisu.

Here, Maha is translated directly as Dai. Koku is likely a transliteration of kala. There are often translations and transliterations in the same name. Consider Maka Shikan {Maha Samatha Vipashyana}

The Sanskrit Maha {great} is generally translated as Dai; but can be transliterated as Maka; while Shikan is a direct translation of Samatha Vipashyana.

BTW, Muni is also translated as "Shonin."

"Far from it. You may not be aware, but it is an ancient tradition in East Asian Mahayana, that monks and nuns are called Shakya. Because the Mahayana uses the name Shakya to denote the Truth of the Dharma. The character Shaku (釈) is not a mere phonetic; it means elucidation, release, liberation."

Hello Hello,

The Soka Gakkai Dictionary of Buddhism:

Shakyamuni
[釈尊・釈�牟尼] (Skt; Jpn Shakuson or Shakamuni)

Also known as Gautama Buddha. The founder of Buddhism. "Shakyamuni" means "sage of the Shakyas," Shakya being the name of the tribe or clan to which his family belonged.

Your theory is certainly interesting, but this is the first I have heard of it. I do realize that some prefer the Shakyamuni of the Lotus Sutra to really mean some other Buddha. This is something I disagree with at this point in time.

Wonder: No Gosho mentions the five statue arrangement.

Hi Wonder

From "On Establishing the Four Bodhisattvas as the Object of Devotion': "Now that we have entered the Latter Day of the Law, an object of devotion should be made of the original Buddha flanked by his original attendants, since, according to the Buddha’s golden words, this is the most appropriate time."

As to the latter passage, Dr. Stone wrote: "Yet another form of honzon possibly adopted during Nichiren's lifetime is known as the "one Buddha and four attendants" (isson shishi). It probably derives from passages in Nichiren's writings such as the following, in a letter to his follower Toki Jonin (1216-1299), dated 1279."

Apparently, at leat some of Nichiren;s immediate disciples took this to mean the 5 statue arrangement.

Stone adds: "And in fact, Toki Jonin's index of the writing, icons, and ritual implements preserved at the temple he established after Nichiren's death includes 'a standing image of Sakyamuni and also the four bodhisattvas (in a small shrine).' The presence of the four bodhisattvas signals that the central icon is the original or eternal, rather than the merely historical, Sakyamuni'

The 5 statue arrangement is also very common in the oldest Nichiren Temples founded his immediate followers.

I have read that at least two of Nikko's 6 elder disciples regarded the Mandala as an expedient to be used until "Isson Shiji" statues could be carved,

I'll go with the middle way. One uses letters and concepts that appeal to the cognitive aspect of perception. One must exercise the brain to learn how to read the Kanji and Siddam.

The other style uses visual imagery that appeals to the emotive side of perception.

Of course, many people have no idea what the Kanji means and still they benefit from using the scripture mandala. So, in that case, they are using it as visual imagery.

Next, someone will mention that Nichiren saw each kanji character as a living Buddha. That is an advantage of Kanji -- it is pictographic, so it can appeal to the cognitive and emotive at the same time.

That seems like creative translation. Most take Shakya to be Gautama's tribe.
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Far from it. You may not be aware, but it is an ancient tradition in East Asian Mahayana, that monks and nuns are called Shakya. Because the Mahayana uses the name Shakya to denote the Truth of the Dharma. The character Shaku (釈) is not a mere phonetic; it means elucidation, release, liberation.

But of course, what constitutes the Dharma, that is a different matter altogether. So as you say, there are many Shakyas, but that is due to the various forms of truths which each group of sutras represents.

So, if one were to regard Prajna-paramita as the Dharma, then, Prajna-paramita is Shakya {the truth}. Likewise, Namu Myoho-renge-kyo is also Shakya. But of course, which Shakya is emanation {transient} which is true {eternal}, that depends which Sutra is final.

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I think Ashoka was the first to refer to him as "Sage of the Sakyans" in writing.

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That may be true, though the Orissa State Government (India) is disputing Nepal's claim to be the birthplace of Gotama. But that is a different matter. One thing is noted: Of the 30 plus rock inscriptions, only the minor inscription called the Rummindei pillar mentions "Sage of Sakya." This is a belated title, which shows the Mahayana sutras were written at a different time, different place, different groups of people, with a different set of perspectives.

But the Buddhism of East Asia is Mahayana, which sees no practical value in Gautama being the one and only Shakya for all eternity. For them, anyone who speaks the truth of the sutras is exercising his ability to be Shakya.

Robin: "The only obvious way to distinguish the Eternal Shaka was to carve his 4 attendants -- Jogyo, etc."

Wonder: No Gosho mentions the five statue arrangement. In fact, all Nichiren ever did, as far as it applies to himself, was to inscribe mandalas, which was his only obvious way to distinguish the Eternal Shaka as shown by Shakyamuni and Taho flanking Namu Myoho-renge-kyo.

Robin: "So later on in the story, Nikko tells Hakiri to wait until he can afford all 5 statues."

K.K's translation:
"For what reason do you want a copy of the Buddha who attained enlightenment for the first time and evanescent. If it is beyond your ability, you should wait until someone appears among your descendant and rightly builds one."

Wonder: There is no hint at all of building five statue. It says "builds one"....which is a copy of the one Nichiro took.

"If it is beyond your ability..." refers to Hakiri's lack of ability to make the proper distinction; Nikko is being sarcastic.

Notice Nikko wrote Shakuson (釈尊).
Shaku (釈) is Shakya (釈迦) the Dharma that releases or liberates people from Samsara. Son (尊) means Venerable.
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That seems like creative translation. Most take Shakya to be Gautama's tribe. I think Ashoka was the first to refer to him as "Sage of the Sakyans" in writing.

My take is that there are 4 different understandings of Shakyamuni in the LS. He starts as Seson. the Bhagava -- the historical Buddha and Nirmana

When he sits in the Tower opoosite Taho in the sky, he becomes the Sambhoga-Kaya. The Daimoku in the center {the Title} represents the Dharma-Kaya.

However, when he preaches in Chapter 16 he becomes
the archetypal Nyorai of Musa Sanjin -- and that is what is represented by Isson Shiji.

That is my take right now.

wonder:

Correction to my last post:

Nikko saw Nichiren's statue (of Shakyamuni) as a transient Shakyamuni.......

That was what I meant.
Posted by wonder at April 1, 2007 10:09 AM
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I tend to think it was more that Hakiri had a transient understanding of that statue. Eison and his followers like Ninsho Ryokan used a similar statue -- a copy of the lost Udayana Buddha to represent "provisional" Shakamuni.

The attendants of the provisional "Seiryoji style Shakyamuni image" would be Fugen & Monju. If there were 4, the other two would be Jizo and Kannon;; or maybe Maitreya and Yakuo.

The only obvious way to distinguish the Eternal Shaka was to carve his 4 attendants -- Jogyo, etc. So later on in the story, Nikko tells Hakiri
to wait until he can afford all 5 statues.

This is all moot of course if one ascribes to the idea that all these past and future Buddhas throughout the universe are projections of Shakyamuni Buddha.

I think I just chant now.
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Charles,

One thing I think I have nailed down is that when Nichiren says that; he means the Buddha who appears in the Juryo Chapter and two halves.

In a sense, calling him Sage of the Sakyans is a transient name for this Dharma Age. In some future Dharma Age, the Buddha might be called Maitreya.

We might say that concepts expressed in letters are less transient than the same concepts expressed in visual imagery. But the type Kanji and Siddam written on the scroll did not even
exist at the time of the historical Shakyamuni; so it is still transient.

Also, once I got past my Christian Statue Phobia, I found that the imagery of painted and carved figures speak to me at a deep level.

robin

Based on your blog and comments, I re-read Phantom City from the LS. Shakyamuni, as the sixteenth son of The Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Buddha, said that he and his sixteen brothers, as well as those who were able to achieve anuttara-samyak-sambodhi are/were born into all the compass points of the universe (perhaps galaxy).

It seems clear to me that the dharma of Nam(u) myoho-renge-kyo is supreme. The heiracial and honorific hosannahs of who is eternal, true, transient, et al., is really dogmatic mythology invented and embellished with extraordinary literary license.

If one looks at the pecking order, even The Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Buddha was one of trillions of Buddhas. Shakyamuni explains how his father, then he and his brothers attained enlightenment. This is all moot of course if one ascribes to the idea that all these past and future Buddhas throughout the universe are projections of Shakyamuni Buddha.

I think I just chant now.

Charles

Correction to my last post:

Nikko saw Nichiren's statue (of Shakyamuni) as a transient Shakyamuni.......

That was what I meant.

Hi wonder:

"Besides that, a few people have written dedications to Namu Myoho-Renge-Kyo, which is the calligraphic image of Shakuson (釈尊), the Master of the Teaching and Nyorai from Kuon Jitsujo; which is the true intention of Sage Nichiren’s honorable advent in the world."

Notice Nikko wrote Shakuson (釈尊).
Shaku (釈) is Shakya (釈迦) the Dharma that releases or liberates people from Samsara. Son (尊) means Venerable.

Therefore, Shakuson (釈尊) alone, is the Venerable Dharma Namu Myoho-Renge-Kyo.

Muni (牟尼) refers to the Person teaching the Dharma. Shakyamuni means "Teacher of the Dharma."

"I, Nikko, told him that I dare not oppose him if he wanted to enshrine the Buddha which the late Sage had and enshrined." (K.K)

"That Buddha however didn't have the bodhisattvas like Superior Practices as attendants. It was only the one who attained enlightenment for the first time in this world." (K.K)

"I said to him, "For what reason do you want a copy of the Buddha who attained enlightenment for the first time and evanescent." (K.K)

* Evanescent/transient?

Nikko saw Nichiren's statue as a transient Shakyamuni, unlike Nichiren's mandala which spelt out Nam Myoho-renge-kyo in bold right down the center, and Shakyamuni buddha seated on the left side (of our view) as an attendant of Nam Myoho-renge-kyo, just as Taho attends to Nam Myoho-renge-kyo on the right side.

I think Nikko's distinction between "the Buddha of Recent Awakening and the Buddha who is Eternally Awake" is stated on Nichiren's written mandala. The mandala of Nichiren seems to make such a distinction very clear. And perhaps Nikko is pointing to that understanding which Hakiri should have, but didn't.

It may be possible that Nikko regards Nam Myoho-renge-kyo as the real name of the Eternal Shakyamuni, who is attended by Shakyamuni and Taho, as well as the four bodhisattvas?

Is Nichiren's Eternal Shakyamuni the "calligraphic mandala" Nam Myoho-renge-kyo? yes

Or is it the carved statue of Shakyamuni resembling the Siddharta Gautama Buddha of India? yea

It should not be either/or. As I mentioned earlier, statues of one Buddha & 4 Attendants were already made by 1288. The Gohonzon at Ikegami is "One Buddha and Four Attendants."

In think Nikko's issue was Hakiri did not understand the distinction between the Buddha of Recent Awakening and the Buddha who is Eternally Awake.

In the same letter, Nikko tells Hakiri he should wait until he can afford a complete set of statues, and use the calligraphy mandala until then.

IIRC, some of Nikko's disciples viewed the mandala as a sort of affordable, portable expedient to be used until permanent statues could be made.

I just don't see Nikko having statue phobia. I think that is from the post-Christian era of Japan. I could be mistaken.

I also don't see a real difference between a picture or statue and a name written in letters.

robin

I think, to understand what Nikko is saying, we have to figure out what Nikko understood as Nichiren's Eternal Shakyamuni.

Is Nichiren's Eternal Shakyamuni the "calligraphic mandala" Nam Myoho-renge-kyo?

Or is it the carved statue of Shakyamuni resembling the Siddharta Gautama Buddha of India?

I think Nikko sort of freaked out because Steward Hara preferred the statue type, like the one Nichiro took, which doesn't have the attending four bodhisattvas.