Robin Beck

Q at E-Sangha mentioned Timothy Leary's 8 circuit model of consciousness. We were discussing the form absorption meditative states. I plan to pursue those {rupa-jhanas} here soon.

I also want to expand on the 6th, 7th, 8th C. There are at least 2 ways of looking at those which work.

My take is that the 6th is the unconscious reflexive mind. The 7th is the cerebral mind. Then the 8th would be sub-c. I think the 8th has both individual & collective layers. But the collective is not a shared non-space. Otherwise, when one person awakens; we all would.

Another workable scheme would make the 6th inclusive of the autonomous & cerebral minds; the 7th the individual S-C, and the 8th, the collective S-C.

The answer might be in the suttas; including the description of the skandhas. The 6th C is mano-vijnana and is part of vedana-skandha, The 7th is manas, and is the Sanna/samjna-skandha. The 8th is defiled citta, and is the sankhara/samskara -skandha. The 9th {Amala} is pure citta and consciousness itself, or vinnana/vijnana-skandha.

That is my tentative take.

Harry:

"I always tended to think of alaya as something more along the lines of Jung's "collective," rather than personal, unconscious."

My publisher, Nicolas-Hays is, at its root, a Jungian publisher. According to Jung, the alaya vijnana is the collective unconscious. Based on my own studies of Jung and Buddhism, I concur.

"Are you familiar with Timothy Leary's 8 circuit model of consciousness? It doesn't match up with the Buddhist scheme but there are enough points of convergence to wonder whether he was influenced by it."

After reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Leary concluded that the bardo states of death, becoming, rebirth, and the peaceful and wrathful deities were virtually identical to passages of consciousness during a psychedelic experience.

Leary was profoundly influenced by Buddhism, but this influence only blossomed after he made the bardo and psychedelic conscioussness connection. From a mystical or spiritual standpoint, Leary was influenced most by Aleister Crowley whose philiosophy embodied all the great traditions, especially magick. Leary wrote a book on the connection of the bardos and psychedelic stages thast is still in print today.

Charles

Hi Robin,

Since you mentioned him...I always tended to think of alaya as something more along the lines of Jung's "collective," rather than personal, unconscious. It could make sense either way, but the implications are very different. I suppose it could be seen as a metaphor for transcending the self, or breaking free of the prison of our own minds, even if there is no empirical evidence to support it.

Freud, AFAIK, didn't refer to a collective unconscious but did have a lot to say about individual unconscious and symbolism, and some stuff to say about "zeitgeist." There is a lot of material that is of interest to the Buddhist. Paul Ricouer's "Freud and Philosophy" is a bit obtuse but a very good read on this topic that brings together a lot of the material, as he went through the Gessamelte Werke in great detail.

(IMO Freud was very under appreciated as a philosopher, which seems to have been his real interest.)

Are you familiar with Timothy Leary's 8 circuit model of consciousness? It doesn't match up with the Buddhist scheme but there are enough points of convergence to wonder whether he was influenced by it.

Hi Dorcus. You can write me privately if you wish.

robek@mchsi.com

Robin - I took a different path. Remember Dorcus Wyman?

"In any case, I think all these Buddhist system of analysis need to be double-checked against psychology and neuroscience"
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Aha! Apparently those who contrived these schemes were observing their own 'citta', comparing what they saw with what others had written, and then tried to explain it.

I think the 6th and 7th points ro the distinction betweeen the 'brain stem' and self directed cerebral processes. This gets dicey when one considers the conative versus the cognitive.

I was told that the terms citta, mana, & vinnana/vijnana seem to have had distinctive meaning in the earlier strata; then become synonyms later on. There are also sati/smtri, vedana, sanna/samjna, sankhara/(samskara, ceta, cetasika, cittuppada, & nama, etc.

Different people/groups seem to have their own ideas what these mean. It shall take patience and equanimity to sort things out.

r

Hi Robin,

My point wasn't that if Nichiren didn't care about it then neither should we. Rather, I was surprised to learn that:

1. What SGI had emphasized as such a major teaching wasn't actually all that important to Nichiren. Just a curious discrepancy, though in fact I think SGI's use of the nine consciousnesses was and is very helpful.

2. That what was presented as a cut and dried system of nine consciousnesses was actually not so cut and dried, and in fact was/is quite controversial.

As for subdividing the various consciousnesses, I agree that it makes sense to differentiate the various functions of the mind or consciousness. As for whether the 9th is a whole other consciousness or is an aspect of the 8th, well as I said I think that all of the various consciousnesses are aspects of the flowing interdependent dynamism of the 8th consciousness anyay. The question is only whether the particular flow associated with our mind-body will flow tranquil and pure or like muddy rapids.

In any case, I think all these Buddhist system of analysis need to be double-checked against psychology and neuroscience in the way that James Austin does in his books "Zen and the Brain." We now have ways of monitoring monitoring the activity of the brain and correlating that with subjective states in ways unimaginable to people like Vasubandhu, Asanga, or Paramartha.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

"Nichiren barely mentions it, and even those gosho which do mention it in passing are not authenticated works if my memory serves."
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So? There are alot of things he doesn't cover.

"Secondly, in the Pali Canon the Buddha pointed out that mind should not be taken as a permanent entity because it changes even more swiftly than the body. Neverthless, there is the concept of the rebirth consciousness which links being A who is dying with being B who is being conceived."
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There is mano/manas and 'citta'. The Buddha, IIRC, mentioned a "pure citta".

"The nine consciousness scheme however was taken into the T'ien-t'ai school and from there into the rest of East Asian Buddhism and especially into esotericism and I think Zen."
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I think just as Manas can be divided unto 6th & 7th, 'citta' can be divided into alaya & amala. I do not think this changes the meaning.

What I experienced as an OOBE may have been an hallucination. It was awesomely pleasent and healing though.

Hi Robin,

I devoted a whole chapter on this in my manuscript Dharma Flower. It took me a long time and a lot of reading of obscure tomes to finally figure out that no one in East Asian Buddhism had really figured it out. As my sensei pointed out to me - this was all speculation. But it does have it's purpose I believe - which is to help us discern that there are levels of mind and that mind is not some solid entity but rather a stream of consciousness that is interdependent with all that is.

Two things I just want to point out:

One is that the ninth consciousness was apparently an innovation on the part of the translator Paramartha (whose translations appeared before those of Kumarajiva), the later translator Hsuan-tsang (who came after Chih-i) discarded this in favor of the more orthodox Indian Yogacaran scheme of just eight consciousness with the eighth having a purified aspect. The nine consciousness scheme however was taken into the T'ien-t'ai school and from there into the rest of East Asian Buddhism and especially into esotericism and I think Zen. Nichiren barely mentions it, and even those gosho which do mention it in passing are not authenticated works if my memory serves. Nevertheless, there are a lot of Nichiren Shu ministers in Japan who devote themselves to studying and utilizing the nine consciousness scheme.

Secondly, in the Pali Canon the Buddha pointed out that mind should not be taken as a permanent entity because it changes even more swiftly than the body. Neverthless, there is the concept of the rebirth consciousness which links being A who is dying with being B who is being conceived. In his essay Bendowa (On the Practice of the Way) Dogen is very critical of those who Japan who were perpetuating the idea that mind is permanent and separate from the impermanent body. He saw this as a dualism that was not in keeping with Buddha Dharma as he had learned and realized it.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

"In this paradox is the seed of 10,000 blogs, myriad books, and an asogi of dhyana or samadhi meditations"
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I like that. Hard to imagine ever getting bored again. Gored maybe, not bored.

Robin:

First, welcome back, and thanks for sharing your illumination from the brink.

"Do you suspect that the "citta-mind" aka the alaya/amala vijnana might be sort of like a soul that can exist without a physical manas/mano brain?"

Something observes, feels, see, hears, knows, and even feels pain/angst, and the joy of joys. What a wonderful mystery! Zen, rightfully encourages a "don't know" mind, open to all possibilities.

Buddha then came along and said "There is no observer." IMHO, consciousness truly exists beyond manifest the physical body, life, the brain, and even the mind itself. In this paradox is the seed of 10,000 blogs, myriad books, and an asogi of dhyana or samadhi meditations. As the Upanishads' state the holy and unteachable conception; "Thou Art That!" You are It!

Charles

Charles.

I had 2 experiences a day apart. The first was induced because an ER Doc dosed me with a powerful antihistamine. That was a real bad idea. I had a very strange 'jhana' trip.

The following day, I flat lined in an ambulance.
This was a very blissful experience. When I woke up, my heart was fine. The effects of the drug on my nervous system lasted longer. There must be an easier way to experience that.

For almost three years now I have been putting the shattered pieces of moi back together. I lost 60 lbs in a short amount of time and had very poor motor control for at least 3 months. I am only now beginning to gain some weight.

Do you suspect that the "citta-mind" aka the alaya/amala vijnana might be sort of like a soul that can exist without a physical manas/mano brain?

r

Robin:

"Why does there have to be a purpose? I will add that it is my understanding that this theory had a lot to do with Charles' recovery. He actually tapped into the awesome healing power that is amala."

First, let me say that this article is vital in understanding of what happens in the process of attainment.

Second, you are again, right on the money regarding what occurred to me. And I am optimistic that others will gain understanding that "sudden" awakening can and does occur in the practice of Buddhism.

My immersion in the amala stream was sudden, transcendental in the respect that my my mind or awareness was elevated from the ordinary into a state of totality, and that event permanently altered my life (condition).

Gradual enlightenment is all I had ever anticipated, yet, for me, it turned out that sudden awakening was the proper medicine. I might also make the distinction here between an immersion into the alaya stream of consciousness. It is my opinion that the samadhi I experienced in the parking lot of the VA hospital in March 1987, where I witnessed the Gohonzon and myriad Buddhas was sudden, yet of the alaya kind. It was an experience and grand vision out of nowhere, but it was of a different type than the one of July 1987 when I wrote that I had a near-death experience.

Over time, I believe that we all experience gradual glimpses of awakening. It is also my contention that major life-challenges or overwhelming adversity can be the perfect catalyst for sudden awakening.

Once this has occurred, the person may eventually descend through the planes (life conditions), but they are forever altered. My experience left my mind and being redesigned or rediscovered or what ever you want to call it.

The tangible proof was the drive and awakened and inherent knowledge that my life would now be devoted to teaching others and guiding them to wellness.

Robin, your work is absolutely vital, of the highest level, and crystal clear. I, and perhaps others, would be interested to know what the nature of your awakening was to have arrived at where you're at. I know you, or rather knew you well for decades, and the Robin of today is truly a transformed being. Positively amazing.

Charles

Robin wrote:
Overcoming "glazed eye syndrome" enhances mental endurance.

VW: OK, I'll buy that. I'm familiar with said syndrome.
VW

Why would I want to understand the difference between alaya and amala consciousness?
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The difference between manas {6th} & mano {7th} might be of more immediate practical value. That is where I am going next. Samatha Meditation, IMO, is about culivating the monkey brain.
Training the 6th do its job well and reforming the 7th. Also, keeping the thinking part of the 7th quiet when it is not needed.

Glad you asked. Why does there have to be a purpose? I will add that it is my understanding that this theory had a lot to do with Charles' recovery. He actually tapped into the awesome healing power that is amala.

For my part, I am being academic -- as pedantic as I can get. That is, in itself, a mental discipline. Like a skill drill in sports. And "the what use is it" is among the bonno one encounters. Overcoming "glazed eye syndrome" enhances mental endurance.

So far, I have been defining terms on this topic. I might expand on it later.

Robin,
So what is the purpose or benefit of all of this stuff? Why would I want to understand the difference between alaya and amala consciousness?
VW