Kempon Hokke

I agree with Shamon. It is the epitome of conceit to proclaim oneself equal or superior to one's teacher even in the secular world and even if it true. How much more so in regards to our teacher Shakyamuni Buddha. It is the SGI's conceit and your conceit Clown Hidden that will bring you down.

Mark

Michele,

Thanks for the corrections.

namaste

Cl,

You quoted:

"In the end, no one can escape death. The sufferings at that time will be exactly like what we are experiencing now. Since death is the same in either case, you should be willing to offer your life for the Lotus Sutra. Think of this offering as a drop of dew rejoining the ocean, or a speck of dust returning to the earth."

Hell is the Land of Tranquil Light, WND, 456

This is actually from The Dragon Gate, WND, 1003 or A Reply to Lord Ueno, ST no. 350, Vol. 4 p. 164:

"In any case, as humans, death remains unavoidable. The pain and sadness experienced by a natural death is no different from that brought on by sickness or war. Hence, since the outcome is unchangeable, it is imperative that we entrust our lives to the Lotus Sutra.

Think of it as returning a drop of dew to the ocean or burying a speck of dust in the earth."

"I slept with faith
and found a corpse in my arms on awakening;
I drank and danced all night with doubt
and found her a virgin in the morning."

Aleister Crowley
The Book of Lies

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

Ku Ku Ke Chu!

Charles/Clown,

CLown, indeed,indeed.

Charles, though I agree with Clown, not because he says what my ears want to hear, but he carries the spirit of the firmness of this belief in the eternal buddha, the boundless awakening, to dispel the darkness even in the deepest hell,I also respect your spirit of debate greatly.

Clown, when you speak of the big bang I am reminded of the following :

"In the end, no one can escape death. The sufferings at that time will be exactly like what we are experiencing now. Since death is the same in either case, you should be willing to offer your life for the Lotus Sutra. This of this offering as a drop of dew rejoining the ocean, or a speck of dust returning to the earth."

Hell is the Land of Tranquil Light, WND, 456

You know, I refer to the Dhammapada and many other teachings of Shakyamuni and I find no conflict here since the essential teaching has been clarified. Who can question the temporal and spatial emination of buddha? The teacher and teaching are fused, Nichiren for this time had the courage to reveal what lay 'between the lines' that we can, for our time, cast aside our provisional identity and merge with the boundless law of nam myoho renge kyo.

namaste

Since you insist. Because everyone is truly a buddha it is absurd to argue over who the True Buddha is.
According to the scientists, at the time of the Big Bang all of the known (and unknown)unioverse was contained in a point smaller than the head of a pin. What distinction existed between you and I then?
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
The Shakyamuni of the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus Sutra states that he is always here preaching the law. Have you seen him?

Clown:

How about this? I will respond here and you get in the last word, and then we'll agree to disagree.

"He points to the Buddha of the sixteeth chapter of the Lotus Sutra, not the historical Buddha and his, according to Nichiren, provisional teachings."

Funny, I was going to write The Buddha of the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus Sutra, but thought Shakyamuni would suffice. I've studied about the five kinds of Shakyamuni, the provisional, essential, and metaphorical Buddhas of the ten directions. It causes me to wonder, did the historical Shakyamuni who taught the three vehicles, channel this uber-Buddha that is the ultimate source for all other Buddha manifestations and then rveal His lifespan?

I find this commentary-based speculation absolutely fascinating, yet, absurd.

"A)Shakyamuni who never spoke or heard the Lotus Sutra (or two thirds of the things attributed to him)?"

Now we have Nichiren basing His teachings on what some would assert is a provisional Buddha who was the very same master who uttered the teachings found in the Lotus Sutra that he Himself, never heard?! It only stands to reason that now Nichiren has formulated a teaching based on his provisional hero's declrations, that were in part the lliterary license of latter followers.

"Nichiren who certainly dedicated his life to the spread of the Lotus Sutra, depicted and explained the Ceremony in the Air, and explained that the attributes of the Buddha are derived from common mortals?"

Here we have more dedication to either a blueprint, a metaphor, a myth, or an actual event describing teleporting entities from all corners of the universe. Take your pick.

My view is tha Shakyamuni is the original, true Buddha for our planet (perhaps our galaxy), and as I have written earlier, based on the sutras attributed to Him, he's just one among countless others - but who knows..but we have priests around to specculate about that, endlessly..zzzzzz.

Nichiren is, in my mind, the orcale of Shakyamuni and the Lotus Sutra. True, provisional, tehoretical, actual...it seems like metaphysical masturbation to me. All I know is that I chant daimoku to the Gohonzon Nichiren inscribed and it awakens my mind and life. Beyond that, your opinion is as unprovable as min. Now get the last word.

Charles

Charles,
He points to the Buddha of the sixteeth chapter of the Lotus Sutra, not the historical Buddha and his, according to Nichiren, provisional teachings.
Who is that Buddha? The one from whom all buddha's eminate, the law itself.
Who exemplifies that law and that Buddha?
A)Shakyamuni who never spoke or heard the Lotus Sutra (or two thirds of the things attributed to him)?
or
B)Nichiren who certainly dedicated his life to the spread of the Lotus Sutra, depicted and explained the Ceremony in the Air, and explained that the attributes of the Buddha are derived from common mortals?
I say "B" but I'm not bothered by people who say "A" although I wonder why they are so dogmatically opposed to my interpretation.

Clown:

"I don't think it is very likely given the conventions of his time and place that he would have announced himself that way. So if he wasn't a Buddha, what was he?"

I have heard this position numerous times over the years and don't accept it. By Nichiren not saying he was the true Buddha, he was not saying he was the true Buddha. If one looks at this sensitivity to time and place, one can hardly believe then, that he came out swinnging at Zen, Shingon, Nembutsu, Ritsu, et al.

Nichiren had no problem smashing the prevaling religions of his time and place, and he had no problem asserting that he was the incaration of Jogyo Bosatsu, foretold in the Lotus Sutra. None.

By way of extension, how much more of a leap would it had been for him to assert or even allude to the alleged fact that he was the Ture Buddha? At that point, after alienating most of the population, angering the authorities to the point that they plotted to have him and his disciples killed, how much of a difference would that have made? Many already thought he was a hertic and worse.

But let's go back a bit. I have read the Lotus Sutra and have yet to find any reference to a true Buddha appearing in Mappo. Show me where that predicition is and I will admit my error. The priests of Nichiren Shoshu assert that this prophecy of the ture Buddha is "hidden between the lines" in the Lotus Sutra. I have also heard it explained that Bodhisattva Jogyo danced for joy as indicating he was the true Buddha.

Was Nichiren a Buddha? Yes, he was a Buddha in no way different than you or I. Was he the True Buddha as descrtibed by SGI/NS? It seems that they created this mythology without any literal proof from the Lotus Sutra whatsoever.

Since the Gohonzon is in no way his invention, and neither is the mantra we chant, I fail to see the logic of your argument. Is Nichiren a Buddha to me? Yes, he is. But when I read his writings, he points to Shakyamuni as the true, eternal Buddha.

Charles

Charles,
I thought a buddha was one who was awakened to the reality of existence. If Nichiren wasn't then why chant the mantra he recommend in front of the scroll he drew and think you would become enlightened by it? Is a buddha only one who describes himself as such? I don't think it is very likely given the conventions of his time and place that he would have announced himself that way. So if he wasn't a Buddha, what was he? Bodhisattva Superior Practices? An incarnation of a literary icon? I can't see why that makes any sense or all that much difference.

Nichiren advises something similar. In one of his letters to Shijo Kingo, Nichiren advises him after Shijo Kingo and Sanmibo remonstrated with Ryuzobo not to argue with him again.

If someone has a legitimate argument then they should be familiar enough with the subject to make the point the first time. If there is a legitmate point of view difference that can be established in one or two sessions.

And if there is a serious place where someone is absolutely wrong on a subject, going back to debate them again only lets them come up with some way to counter, spin, or shift the subject.

I used to think I could debate certain people about religion, but after a few hundred sessions (I'm stubborn) I realized that they weren't about to let facts budge them. To argue with them over and over again just lets them come up with grammar mistakes, typos, or sloppy points, that they can then use to degrade, dehumanize or defame one with.

There are legitimate differences of point of view. For example between you and I are some differences of view. But I respect that you are a "fact based" person. On the other hand there are people who I once thought based their views on facts who have proved to be liars on the basis of their refusal to even deal with evidence when they see it. There is no point in talking to such people.

Chris

"No truer words have been spoken here"

Not sure who you are referring to. We were having a discussion and the subject of the SGI was raised. In my own case, I do have an attachment of sorts to the SGI, like the attachment I have to my family. There are good things and not so good things, but they are ripe for discussion. I suppose to make the above statement puts one in some kind of superior spiritual or intellectual position, or so they might think.

I, for one, would like to see Mark continue writing. Sometimes he attacks the SGI or its members/leaders in such a way that pains me - it's hard for me to read. At other times, he's like a surgeon who cuts through the layers of heresy and spin to shed light on dogman that others just accept to be true, without thinking it through themselves. I find this aspect of Mark quite valuable.

In my mind, the SGI needs to be discussed at times - not ALL the time, but it needs to be discussed to expose their errors, their problems, and to praise what they do right. At leaset that's my personal opinion on the subject.

"I don't have any problem with Nichiren as Buddha and that's that."

Neither did I. Apparently, though, Nichiren himself never expressed in writing that conclusion. If anyone else can show where Nichiren claimed to be the true Buddha in his own writings, I would admit my error. If anyone can show me in the Lotus Sutra where Bodhisattva Superior Practices is the true Buddha of Mappo, I would be forever grateful. I'm waiting...

Charles

"And I would also note that those who loudly complain about the SGI are more attached to them than most of the people who show up at SGI meetings."

No truer words have been spoken here

If any one claims that I follow SGI they don't know me.
And I would also note that those who loudly complain about the SGI are more attached to them than most of the people who show up at SGI metings.

I don't have any problem with Nichiren as Buddha and that's that.

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Mark, I don't often agree with you, but I've always found your posts entertaining. Hope you will start writing more soon. Maybe you can come up with some interesting posts that don't include remonstrations.

It's all about making distinctions, and I am inclined to side with Shamon here. The SGI, IMHO, has distorted the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's intentions.

Clown, I really enjoy your site, but strongly disagree with your words and position here. Keep up the good work with your site.

Charles

"Nichiren definitely said in several places that the "historical" Shakyamuni is not the same as the Budddha of the sixteeth chapter of the Lotus Sutra."

Nichiren shonin did not say so in his writings. Of course, it is not said in the Lotus sutra. SGI and NST only says so in their interpretation.

"You don't have to worry about me blindly following anyone, I follow my own heart and decide for myself in each instance."

You have not followed Nichiren shonin. You just follow SGI. Then you think that you follow your own heart.

Shamon,
Nichiren definitely said in several places that the "historical" Shakyamuni is not the same as the Budddha of the sixteeth chapter of the Lotus Sutra. You can believe whatever you want. As far as Jesus goes I think it would be a great idea if christians followed his teachings. Feel free to believe I'm an ignorant person who has been mislead, I still know what I know and I have no illusion about convincing you.
My practice is Nichiren's practice. Nichiren is my guiding star. Whatever floats your boat.
And I follow those "unauthenticated writings" because of what they say and not who said them.
I suppose that people who believe their book was written by the Holy Ghost don't accept any of the Gosho, but why would I care?
You don't have to worry about me blindly following anyone, I follow my own heart and decide for myself in each instance.

If there is Christian sect which says that Jesus Christ and his teachings are useless, it is a absurd cult sect. It must be a waste of time to argue with people who don't understand this common sense, those who swallow SGI's deceptions and repeat these doctrines. This comment will be last one for you.

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You say; "Well let's all give up then, the great man has achieved what no one else ever will."
------------------------------------------------

Shamon Gautama was an ordinary human who were anguished. Shamon Gautama became one with a original Buddha who existed in his mind. It shows possibility that ordinary human become a Buddha. It is an expedient of the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni to teach that anyone has the Bussho. There are no stupid people who say that historical Buddha Shakyamuni is different from Buddha Shakyamuni of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus sutra, except SGI/NST believers. Therefore Nichiren shonin preaches that you should realize the existence of the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni in your mind, and get his guidance.

-----------------------------------------------
You say; "You are the true buddha and Shakyamuni is just a figment of your imagination."
-----------------------------------------------

SGI says that Nichiren is the true Buddha. But also SGI says that you are the true Buddha. It was one of Japanese Chuko Tendai thoughts, and was described in Nichiren's forged documents. A lot of priest of Nichiren shu sect are still influenced by this doctrine. Also it is a doctrine of Japanese Zen sects that was criticized by Nichiren shonin.

Ordinary man is just an ordinary man who has no enlightenment. Buddha is a great man who has gotten a greatest wisdom. Don't be self-conceited. You are completely different from Buddha who has gotten the truth of the cosmos. Your knowledge is completely different from Buddha's wisdom. You should not have an excessive pride. Cult sects take advantage of human's vanity. You will become serious and get angry to justify your self who believes SGI's doctrine. It will be cause of all of your mistake, your bad karma. You will be not able to hear the teachings of the true Buddha, the eternal Buddha Shakayamuni in your mind.

You should not obey the voice of Ikeda Taisaku. You should not hear the voice of evil spirits in your mind. Therefore you have to study the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni. You have to chant "Namu Myoho renge kyo" and to take an oath to spread the true Dharma in front of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Nichiren shonin says that those who hear the voice of the Buddha Shakyamuni and spread the true Dharma will be said as a Jiyu- bodhisattva.

Kempon Hokke shu has not a special dogma. Kempon Hokke has common knowledge of Buddhism and philosophy. So, we believe the Lotus sutra preached Buddha Shakyamni. So, we believe Nichiren's authentic writings.

"Historical Buddha Shakyamuni was a only person who could embody the eternal Buddah who is in human mind on himself perfectly."

Well let's all give up then, the great man has achieved what no one else ever will.

I don't see why anyone would choose to believe that.

If anything I would rather think the opposite.

You are the true buddha and Shakyamuni is just a figment of your imagination.

That seems much more like the truth to me.

Besides Shakyamuni stated that he wanted to bring everyone to his level without the slightest difference or exeption. My way he succeeded while your way he was a failure. Lest anyone claim I'm
slighting him.

And of course the Buddha that Nichiren referred to was the Shakyamuni of the 16th chapter of the Lotus Sutra who was NOT the historical Shakyamuni, but an archetype of a buddha and predominantly the Dharmakaya. You can say it is anyone because in fact it is everyone.

> Asserting that Nichiren is the true Buddha. I guess it depends on how you define buddha. To my way of thinking Nichiren as true buddha is a recognition of the universality of buddha nature and that daimoku is a call to it's awakening.
Every person has the buddha nature and Nichiren represents that buddhahood of the common man where as Shakyamuni is more like a God.
------------------------------

Historical Buddha Shakyamuni was a only person who could embody the eternal Buddah who is in human mind on himself perfectly. Therefore Buddha Shakyamuni is the true Buddha, and his personality is the eternal Buddha itself. Then historical Buddha Shakyamuni is the founder of Buddhism. The eternal Buddha Shakyamuni is not a kind of a God. Buddha Shakyamuni is the core of human mind.

The above has been preached in the Lotus sutra and Nichiren's works. The figure of Buddha who has gotten perfect enlightenment is also stated in the Lotus sutra.

Historical Nichiren shounin was not the Buddha. Nichiren shonin struggled with persecutions as the head of disciple of the eternal Buddha Shakyamuni. Nichiren shounin was the incarnation of Bodhisattva Jyogyo. Nichiren shonin proved the eternal Buddah Shakyamuni's existence in his mind and had spread the Lotus sutra.

It might be useless for people who believes the doctrine of SGI/NST which insists that the Lotus sutra preached by Buddha Shakyamuni is useless. SGI/NST distorts the interpretation of the Lotus sutra and Nichiren's works. The religion managed under the guidance of cult's leader is very dangerous. Those believers are convinced that the faith to their doctrine is justice. They will be not able to have a objective judgment.

I hope SGI's believers will open early their eyes to the truth.

Asserting that Nichiren is the true Buddha

I guess it depends on how you define buddha. To my way of thinking Nichiren as true buddha is a recognition of the universality of buddha nature and that daimoku is a call to it's awakening.
Every person has the buddha nature and Nichiren represents that buddhahood of the common man where as Shakyamuni is more like a God.
I don't have a problem with it.

The authenticiity of the Dai-Gohonzon as proclaimed

As far as I can tell this is pious nonsense, but I don't find SGI so attached to that plank of wood in Japan. Since they have been cut off from it their atttitude seems to me to n=be that all gohonzons are daigohonzons, first and foremost the one in your room. Some b.s. here but I'm again not bothered.

Nam versus Namu

Couldn't really give a rat's ass either way. I think being so hung up on pronuciation seems ridiculous even though I know some people really care. It may be a legitimate problem for them but not for me.

The relegation of the Lotus Sutra to a supplementary doctrine that has lost its power for salvation - to be replaced by the Gosho and the mentor-disciple relationship

I couldn't understand the Lotus Sutra at all without the lens of the Gosho and the practice of daimoku.
The mentor disciple thing has been blown all out of proportion and subtly teaches dependence on someone outside yourself. A natural function in life and learning has been turned from a truth to a lie. Whenever they go on about this, I water it down in my own mind then throw out the glass without drinking it. People love this shit though so I don't disturb them. Hey if you think you need parental guidance, it's not my place to tell you no.

The exaltation of PI beyond all reason

I alternate between being bothered and finding it ridiculously funny.

The true linneage

I don't believe any group has a lock on truth due to having the proper pedigree, but almost all religions play this game.

Daimoku, ichinen sanzen, and the parts of the Gosho I find inspiring are still there and interested and sometime interesting people to practice with seem all that's really needed. These other things may be flaws but they're only fatal if they trouble you.

Let me say "The fatal flaw" for me. My position is that a fatal flaw is when a doctrine is erroneous and its flaws must be overlooked. From the stanndpoint you mentioned, it is probably correct that every doctrine is flawed, so why be concerned with a flaw here or a flaw there. One can take that line of thinking and begin to accept any and all doctrines.

My personal position, Clown, is for me the fatal flaws are:

Some But not All Major Flaws:

Asserting that Nichiren is the true Buddha

The authenticiity of the Dai-Gohonzon as proclaimed

Nam versus Namu

The relegation of the Lotus Sutra to a supplementary doctrine that has lost its power for salvation - to be replaced by the Gosho and the mentor-disciple relationship

The exaltation of PI beyond all reason

Some but Not All Minor Flaws:

The Kechikyaku doctrine as taught in Nichiren Shoshu and the three presidents

The Buddhism of the Sowing and Harvest as it relates to the explicit dismissal of "we" being trained by Shakyamuni as bodhisttvas of the earth

The passive-aggressive antagonism displayed against other forms of Buddhism and other religious desipte the explicit intention within the SGI charter of tolerance and engagement

Again, the exaltation of PI

These are "fatal flaws" for me, and me alone. I agree that when you put a teaching or doctrine under the electron microscope you will see that they are all flawed and if you let every frlaw stop you, you might not be able to follow anything. Even the Lotus Sutra is a latter production with literary license. Then, what can a person believe? Well, nothing, really. Now you are in the realm of Bruce Maltz when he asserts that "there is no Buddhism." He is correct. What is true is unspeakable and unknowable with the mind of mundane reckoning. That leaves us with nothing - emptiness.

This is why I could no longer accept, follow, or propagate the SGI doctrine. I liken it to a crack in my windshield. A small crack poses little problems. Numerous cracks, deep cracks, pose a serious safety risk. Is it still realisitic to overlook the flaws because all doctrine has flaws? Yes, I did that and you can still get a lot out of it and have a great time. For me, there were way too many cracks and it was getting worse. It's too cold in the Midwest to kick that windshield out and go on with your driving, so I replaced the windshield, knowing that at some point, a pebble is going to ding my windhield again and start those damn cracks again.

Charles - these are MY "fatal flaws" - Atkins

I rather imagine that the fatal flaw in any religion is to become so attached to meaningless points of argument, or to the religion itself so as to cause disharmony or any other type of negative energy creation. i don't see how anyone can tell me that if you chant the daimoku it doesn't help in the attainment of enlightenment.whether the sgi, nshoshu,nshu,whatever- if you tell me that chanting daimoku and you are not a member of ___________, i'll tell you to fo cause you don't get it. the crap of you have to do this, do that is just that, crap. you need to find your own road to liberation. its not in any book or movie- its inside- find it.
j

There are fatal flaws in the SGI doctrine? More than there are fatal flaws in any doctrine. I would like tyo know the fatal flaw. Is it proclaiming that Nichiren is a buddha? I can see some one viewing that as a flaw, but what is so terrible about it? If I say Nichiren is a Buddha and I follow him, what am I losing. Seems more like window dressing to me not somethingh that comes under the building codes. I can't see the harm in it. Maybe you mean something else like the idolization of President Ikeda which is abhorant to me personally but I could not call it a fatal flaw. People idolize their religious leaders and teh leaders start commodifytng themselves to promote the image, Mother Teresa, Dali Lama, etc. any and just about every religion has this, is the fatal flaw that SGI doesn't finesse this well?
Anyway if some one can tell me what makes up the fatal flaw that makes SGI some how sub par I would like to know.

Mark:

Yes, it seems that you have remonstrated many, many times. At times your words have been lucid and compelling, and at other times, your message has been offensive and, quite frankly, painful for me to read.

Since my divorce from the SGI, I have come to many of the same doctrinal conclusions that you came to long before I connected the dots. What has served me well and garnered me numerous allies is the fact that I have never forgotten my debt of graditude to the SGI for the many opportunities they provided for me, and the mostly positive effect the SGI had on me.

With that said, there is no doubt in my mind that there are fatal flaws in the doctrine that is taught in the SGI. Further, there are other distortions and problems that put it at odds with the Lotus Sutra and the crystal clear intention on Nichiren.

No amount of remonstration by any person or logic based on another sects doctrine would have ever swayed me from the SGI and the master-disciple relationship. I use this model as a guide on how to promote the Lotus Sutra and Modern Buddhism. For me to realize and accept the erroneous nature of the SGI, it was necessary to awaken, all by myself, as I said before, because no human, no matter how convincing could have flipped me.

There surely is a time to initiate shakubuku and there's a time to conduct shoju. It is also common to employ both on the same person or group at the same time. For me, the very best and most effective form of remonstration is to employ the spirit and tone of the Lotus Sutra, minimizing the archaic and incorporating a modern nomenclature with venacular that resonates with the capacity of the person or people you are communicating with.

People are far more responsive, impressed, and open to the truth when one moves their heart and inspires their mind, versus raping their philosophy and smashing their attachments. One only creates enemies when they do this. There are times when one should become an oracle, a prophet, an old school votary of the Lotus Sutra, with all the fire and passion the Nichiren had, but I dare say that those circumstances are rare.

To me, you are most compelling and convincing when you use the Lotus Sutra itself, mixed with tasteful, non-hurting humor.

Of course, I really have no right to lecture you on such matters. Let's just say that this comment was an observation from a friend in faith who is impressed by the doctrinal veracity of Kempon Hokke, and would like to see you write mre, share more of your insights on the Lotus Sutra, and succeed in your propagation efforts.

Charles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY5wxOhlPig

Dear Charles:

Nichiren remonstrated three times. I remonstrated thirteen thousand times. Maybe Nichiren knew what he was doing. Thanks for the advice.

Mark

Mark:

I enjoy your writings very much. My suggestion is to ignore, or rather, desist in remonstration of the nemisis and proclaim, with absolute confidence, the truth of The Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's clear intention. I've come to realize that revealing the truth of The Lotus Sutra, the truth of Buddhism, if you will, is far more convincing and effective than dismanteling the dogmatic-delusions spawned by the nemisis.

In fact, when one reads The Lotus Sutra, therein lies the perfect approach of refutation of the three vehicles. This approach does not impune, defile, or mug the erroneous views, it states the truth that was always there, like the clouds that obscured the mountain, but that have now blown away, giving one that clear view. You will win more minjds this way than entrenching people in a defensive posture.

By all means, reveal the truth.

Charles