I was recently talking to a dear friend who is active in the Science of Mind (a.k.a, Religious Science, Unity Movement, etc. - not Scientology) about the topic of prayer for others. This friend has trained for years to be a "practitioner" in his church, that is to say that he is officially licensed to act as a counselor, and he is bound by ethical considerations such as confidentiality, etc. He has actually been trained in what his church believes is an effective form of prayer - this training makes him interesting to talk to. He's not just making things up as he goes along.
The fascinating point which my friend made to me, is that in his church, it is not considered ethical to pray for any particular result for anyone else without first obtaining that person's consent. It's a question of boundaries and free will. For example, if you want to pray for someone to be healed, then you need that person's permission to pray for a healing. Otherwise, you just pray for that person's best and highest good (which might entail dying in their current body - you don't ever really know the course of someone else's life).
This has given me a great deal to think about in regard to the ethics of prayer. I Googled "Prayer Ethics" and "ethics of Prayer", but didn't come up with a lot that was helpful.
The reason I raise this issue is that my experience in the SGI is that we often receive guidance to chant in a particular way about other people, but don't always consult with those people about what it is that we're doing.
How much manipulating of others with prayer do you think is ethical? I wanted to write more on this today, but my time is short, so I will write more next week. I just threw this out for a discussion. Have a happy Memorial Day weekend, all -
Byrd in LA
Hmm, let me ask this broader question:
What are the ethical teachings of Soka Gakkai? Or, to rephrase, SGI believes it is teachings something called "Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism". So what, according to SGI, are the ethics and ethical principles of "Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism"? Or is it amoral? - by which in this case I mean something that transcends and leaves behind morality and thus ethics and ethical principles.
Do you, Bryd, belong to an organization with ethics and ethical principles aside from what the top of the line leaders consider to be expedient at a particular time and location?
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei
Wow. Your friend is coming from a place I would like to come from. It is something to aspire to.
It seems to me that our thoughts and views are the parents of our words and actions. Therefore, if our prayers come from an essentially manipulative or coercive viewpoint, we are planting some bad seeds.
I think the unethical praying arises when we are praying for something for someone when we think we know what is best for them. For instance, say, I pray "that my boyfriend gets a job making $1,000,000 a year at Microsoft". This would be excellent, if my boyfriend really loves programming and would fit into the culture, and especially excellent if he has an algorithm that would create 3D modeling software that helps doctors discover cancer earlier.
However - if he would much rather be making pizzas for the masses, finds programmers to be an odd, unpleasant lot, and I want him to make the million dollars a month to support my crack habit, then I am not coming from the vantage point of a Buddha or Boddhisattva.
I think the critical things are the full intent of the prayer, and the ethical system one holds dear. If your ethical belief system upholds free will, respect for others, and strong boundaries, then, your prayers should be consistent with that system. Praying ethically probably also requires some really meticulous self-scrutiny, since it can be easy to rationalize manipulative ideation to oneself.
I do think "ethical" prayer can be hardest when it involves people you are deeply attached to through hate or love.
How many people know or have parents who have prayed unceasingly for something that brought deep pain or sorrow to one of their children? Certainly, parents don't want to see their children suffer, but sometimes, they don't understand their children fully, or have illusions about what they think their children need to be.
Anyway, it's a very important topic, and your friend's perspective is inspiring.
Kris
Often when praying for others, I honestly believe we are actually praying to change our attitude towards others-- develop more tolerance, compassion and empathy. As our behavior changes, it changes our environment including the people in it. Praying to get someone to do something you want them to is manipulative (frankly doesn't work anyway). Praying for their happiness, peace and enlightenment shifts the focus away from "me, me, me, gimme" to oh there are actually other people in the world who are suffering.
I don't think we are doing "unethical" things like "baptising" people after death into our practice (another faith does this routinely).
For me ethical prayer is to pray for the peace and happiness of others. Isn't that what Boddhisatvas of the Earth are supposed to do?
Byrd:
I want my props. You've read my books and you've read my blogs. How many times have I said this very thing. Dr. Larry Dossey discusses this in his books, as do I. Christian Science has developed this into an art form. Google "Spintdrift," the internationally respected prayer research group. Read "Be Careful What You Pray For," by Larry Dossey.
You should never pray for a specific result for someone without their permission. Think about it. The lack of savvy and prayer ethics of the SGI boils down to a misunderstanding of prayer modality and prayer type. SGI promotes the idea that micro-specific, targeted prayer is the way to go, and the science of prayer (and yes! there is plenty of science, guys) clearly demonstrates that non-specific, attachment free pryerhits the mark some consistently, and WITHOUT the fallout of unintended collateral damage from targeted prayer. Targeted prayer, in not properly intended and presented has consequences that often cause more damage than any benefit actually dervived from the realization of that prayer effect.
In light of my books and frequent invocation of this issue, this can't possibly be any surprise to you, can it Byrd?
Charles
Posted by: Charles at May 25, 2008 10:53 AMRyuei, I pray that someday you will be able to give up your obsession with SGI (just kidding).
Byrd, by "manipulating others through prayer," I hope you don't mean you believe whatever we pray for, for others, will come to pass. Perhaps you mean "trying to manipulate others." Anyway, I was thinking, well, it can't hurt to pray for someone else's happiness. Then it occurred to me, what if that person hates Buddhism? Maybe he doesn't want Buddhists praying for him in any way.
The basic teaching of Nichiren Buddhism is to change ourselves first. Of course coming together as a community and praying for someone who is ill or troubled is fine too.
Posted by: Vanya at May 25, 2008 11:08 AMVanya,
Curiously enough I've encountered people who don't want me praying for them (because I'm non-Christian, or the wrong flavor of non-Christian), and I personally am not keen on my neighbors praying that I will become Christian, but I'm coping - I know most of them have good intent.
Mimi, I'm with you on one idea - sometimes, if I drift into praying for a specific something for someone, it alerts me to a need to dig into my own ignorance and arrogance and sort myself out so to speak, and chant to get myself on the Boddhisattva track.
Thanks, Charles, for some leads on further reading
Posted by: Kris at May 25, 2008 02:30 PMByrd,
President Ikeda says, "who answers our prayers? We do!"
If you are praying to manipulate others you are the vehicle for that action and no one else.
I ask others what their ailment is before I offer prayers on their behalf, otherwise how will know what is the appropriate action to take.
Just as I was taught in my youth, their are two aspects to prayer, daimoku and action based on that daimoku.
Those that are praying for others happiness without knowing whether the other person is happpy or unhappy are following their own path and not the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin or the guidance from President Ikeda.
Patrick
Posted by: Patrick at May 26, 2008 06:24 AM
I am sure the SGI members prayers for other's happiness will be as effective as their prayers for the Sho Hondo and the dissolution of the Nichiren Shoshu.
Mark
Posted by: Mark Rogow at May 26, 2008 08:33 AMPray whatever you like. I can't see how wishing good things (or what you consider good things) would be unethical. Wishing harm to someone would be unethical but as long as you wanted good things for them, I think it would be o.k. I don't believe that you could pray someone into a job or a healing they didn't want. I won't go so far as to say prayer dosen't really work, but I don't believe it is the determining factor that the prayerful do. For my part I wouldn't pray for anyone else for anything less than $50. down and 5% of the gross. Just kidding.
Posted by: clown hidden at May 27, 2008 12:09 PMHello Byrd,
Praying for a new car?
Too bad if the target person is a bad driver or drink too much.
Praying for a best job?
Too bad if the target person is loafer or irresponsible.
Praying for much money?
Too bad if the target person is fool, dumb, wasteful or vicious.
But,
Praying for the enlightenment and Buddhahood of all sensient beings?
That is the Enlighted Activity,
That is the Enlighted Wisdom,
That is the Enlighted Compassion.
That is the best prayer.
Bests,
Gnomegang.-
Posted by: Gnomegang at May 27, 2008 05:31 PMAnd now folks, you are in for a treat, a joke I wrote way back in the 70's, hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
"In the SGI all prayers are answered.
But the Answer is NO"
Thank you, Thank you,
Now back to your fighting and bickering,
Bruce
Byrd!
I miss your posts! where you at?
I need my Byrd's Eye view fix!
Magnolia- the artist formally known as St. Clair
Posted by: Magnolia at June 3, 2008 08:35 AM