A Byrd's Eye View

Queen Lolo -

I think you have identified a couple of major the problems facing the independent Nichiren Buddhist community today.

It takes a lot of work to put together a group; it takes great commitment as well to have it organized enough to continue to meet on a regular basis. Lots of people lament the lack of such groups, but don’t want or aren’t able to do the work of creating one. It also turns out that different people want very different things from their Buddhist sanghas, as well as having different ideas about exactly what "Nichiren Buddhism" is or is not. Finding a consensus on exactly what/how a group will interact and operate can be an interesting process. David Overland can attest to this, I believe....... and his UU group is one of the few independent groups operating that I am aware of.

Personally I believe you CAN find Nichiren Buddhism being taught the way you are looking for, but I don’t know if it is easily available where you are; it will also most likely not be in an independent context, but by some of the established schools.

Leaving out such scholarly folk as Jaqueline Stone et al, I am also unaware of any "independent" Nichiren Buddhist authors or translators at this time who are writing for lay practitioners, unless one counts the people writing here at FWP. One main reason is that such an endeavor would probably not be self-supporting at this time; the market just isn't there yet. Charles, any comments? Another is that similar to above there is (at this time) no commonly accepted definition of what "Nichiren Buddhism" is, outside of the teachings of the different schools.

Another question might be that of credentials……. When you buy a book by a Buddhist author, do you generally take into account the person’s experience and bio? Does whether they have worked with known teachers, or at known institutions help you make your decision? If so, how does an independent Nichiren author present him- or herself? The only way we currently have of understanding where a given author’s positions fall upon the entire Nichiren spectrum is to define them by the different schools’ interpretations; i.e. “[s]he is teaching Fuji School style viewpoints” or some such.

This is a very interesting topic. To change the current landscape will take much effort and work on the part of many people. I wonder how many are up for it?

Namaste, Engyo Mike Barrett

Sometimes the very nature of being "independent" is what kills a group. While it may be possible to get a group of independent Nichiren Buddhists together who all share a belief in the daimoku, sometimes just deciding on "Nam" or "Namu" during group chanting could be enough to break a group apart. I think this is one reason why, although I hate being a "joiner", I tend to stick with established groups and do my best to let the associated crapola of organized religion roll off my back so that I can still appreciate the more important aspects of the practice. Hard to do at times.

Yes Nichieguy -

While it is easy to come to consensus around what everybody does NOT want (we don't want to do it like that other group did); what everybody DOES want can be much harder to define and agree on......and is very often many different things, instead of one thing.

Namaste, Engyo Mike Barrett

Yes, trying to start a group of "independents" is quite a challenge, as I know from our experience with homeschooling.... organizing a group of people who are not "group people!" In fact, I am one of those, and probably what I would really want even more than a live group would be some books written by so-called "independents."

I am a somewhat active member of SGI but I came to the practice in an unusual way. Sometime around 1980 I got a book out of the library ( I used to raed a lot of buddhist books back then ) this one was small and caught my attention because it had a buddhist liturgy at the back. I'm pretty sure the book was lectures on the sutra. From the book I got the idea that a scroll that said nam myoho renge kyo was the focal point. So I made a poster and started chanting and doing the liturgy. I added the 3 refuges and the bodhisattva vow. I did that for several months. A few years later I was living as a Hare Krishna and we had a truck that we had decked out as a temple on wheels and we had a little bajan band I would play tambora for hours on end. One day a chinese young man wearing clothes that looked like white robes and a sun hat stayed till the end and wanted to talk to me. He said he was a buddhist and he was interested in what we were doing because he chanted too. I asked him what he chanted and he said nam myoho renge kyo. I said I'd heard of that and where could I get books. He took me to the culture center where they told me I really didn't want books I wanted to get the gohonzon. So I left the temple and went to a couple of meetings and within a couple of weeks had my scroll and all the books they were then selling. It's been a winding crooked on and off road journey since.one thing is that after practicing for a while all those buddhist books I had read before became a lot more comprehensible.I've always believed what John Lennon said,"There is no guru who can see through your eyes." But at the same time and I forget now who said it,"If I can see far it is only because I am standing on the shoulder of giants."

HRH Queen Lolo:

Engyo brought up an important point about independent Buddhist authors. IMHO, based on years of experience with publishers who print books on Buddhism, SGI/NST brand Buddhism is not popular with the reading public.

My opinion is that it is only the independents that will be able to gain popularity because the SGI ruins the message with biased, hack editorial practices so nothing original gets into print. An independent writer isn't going to get published in the mainstream unless they have the credentials and skills to make the grade. So, engyo, there is a somewhat built in control to weed out unqualified writers.

I'm with the Queen. But if we want there to be these kins of books out there, we have to write them. I'm doing my part. I know that there are people most capable of getting published like Rev. Ryuei. I know of one other woman, who I shall not name and who is a brilliant writer and editor that has been assailed by the SGI, who will be published one day. When that day comes, I'll be the first in line at her book signing.

Charles

Hi all,
A couple of points. I very much do not think my writings are publishable. They are too specialized. Publishers either want self-help books with a Buddhist glss, or books about Zen, Tibetan, or Vipassana. There doesn't seem to be a market for anything that doesn't fit into those categories. And I, for better or most likely for worse, do not write self-help books. I write to untangle the Dharma for myself and anyone else who might find it useful. Right now I am revising my Who's Who on Shutei Gohonzon to be published by my temple as "Lotus World." But this is not something that would have popular appeal. Really, only those few Nichiren Buddhists who care to learn in more depth what is written on their magick scrolls will be interested in this book.

Now to address the issue of Independent groups, as far as I am concerned I have the seed of one in Marin Co. It consists of only four or more of us who agreed to get together once a month, do gongyo, and discuss the Lotus Sutra and gosho together. Except for myself, no one is a member of anything. We use the Sacred Services of Nichiren Shu which is not the official Nichiren Shu liturgy but the San Jose adaptation of it designed for lay practice several years ago (the official one is called the Liturgy of Nichiren Shu and is available from NBIC). We use an Omandala that was bought from a butsugu store in Japan which I personally eye-opened. We are currently studying the SGI translation of the Ongi Kuden with recourse to Jackie Stone's comments and partial translation and other works. I ended up as the de facto liturgical leader and facilitator simply because everyone seems to trust me to do a good job with that and no one else has asked to lead. But unless we end up getting a lot more people involved, this is really just a small special interest group that has no real future beyond the present involvement of the current handful of people. I think most Independent groups if they exist are like this - cobbled together from various sources, mostly ex-SGI members, no real effort to grow and no real chance of children taking over when we are gone. They are simply not self-sustaining communities, but just ephemeral groups of people coming together with a mutual interest for awhile.

Christian Churches, on the other hand, are communities of people who come together both on Sundays and sometimes for other activities throughout the week. They come together as families, if they are big enough they members may meet the person they are going to marry their, they get married there, they get their children baptized and educated there, their children grow up their with friends and then may meet their own spouses there or through some other affiliated faith community. The Sunday service at Church has become the village square that has otherwise disappeared in urban and even suburban life. It is where like people come together to form lasting and self-sustaining communities.

Buddhism in this country can not match that outside of a few immigrant communities that is still receiving fresh waves of immigration. There is really no future for Buddhism in this country except as a kind of hobby for those who are either post-Christian or who are Christian but want something a little more exotic to spice things up.

I think Nichiren Buddhism in particular will fade away by the mid-21st century the same way Theosophy and Spiritualism did in the 20th century. Oh, it may still be around, but it will just consist of a few cranks or maybe as part of some kind of New Agey amalgamation.

The main reason will be lack of commitment and lack of the desire to make the sacrifices it takes to build a sustainable community, and the lack of family involvement and community appeal. A bunch of individualists afraid of commitment because they have already been burned too many times are just not capable of building a self-sustaining Sangha. Christianity, on the other hand, is stronger than ever with their mega-Churches and so on.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

How were the teachings of Nichiren first translated? Who found them and how did they become a formal practice, rather than simply another teaching?

It occurred to me this evening that maybe the answer for me is to find independent Buddhist translations of the Lotus Sutra itself, rather than of Nichiren. I saw an audio set ("Sounds True" catalog) of Thich Nhat Hanh speaking on The Lotus Sutra and may order it if I can't find it in book form.

I think the spread of Independent Nichiren flavored Buddhism is unfolding as it should. And it will take some surprizing eclectic-syncretic forms in response to the challenges of rapidly changing world events. Groups that are not Nichiren or even Buddhist specific will be using the Gohonzon.

Guanyin & Puxian are & will be increasing identified by the general Christian public with Mary-Jesus, Ra-Isis, etc. Samatha-Vipassana is already being taught in very mainstream conservative Protestant Christian Congregations.

Christians are attracted because it works. It is going to happen in spite of our best efforts to control the process. It is happening right now.

mettawaves

ryoben

Queen Lolo: "How were the teachings of Nichiren first translated? Who found them and how did they become a formal practice, rather than simply another teaching?"

Do you mean translated into english? I believe that the NSIC (Nichiren Shoshu International Center) began the translation effort; translating from the Nichiren Shoshu Gosho Zenshu collection. They published volumes of Nichiren's work throughout the 1980's. There are also translations by NOPPA (Nichiren Overseas Propogation & Publication Association?? I don't have the acronym in front of me - Nichiren Shu) translating from the Nichiren Shu Showa Teihon collection. This effort also began in the early 1980s and is still continuing today.

As for when Nichiren's teachings became formal practices, they have been continuously practiced since Nichiren's day. I do know that the practices have evolved over time; but they were never "lost" and then "discovered".

Queen Lolo: "It occurred to me this evening that maybe the answer for me is to find independent Buddhist translations of the Lotus Sutra itself, rather than of Nichiren. I saw an audio set ("Sounds True" catalog) of Thich Nhat Hanh speaking on The Lotus Sutra and may order it if I can't find it in book form."

If you haven't studied the Lotus Sutra to date, I highly recommend doing so. I am not sure what you mean by an "independent Buddhist translation" of the Lotus Sutra though......

I am aware of 5 english translations of the Lotus Sutra currently available. One, the Kern, is usually available online; it is supposedly translated from the sanskrit, in 1882. All of the others are from the Kumarajiva Chinese version of the Sutra (the one Nichiren studied and was familiar with). I have not seen, nor am I familiar with the background of, the Hurvitz version; it has been out of print for many years. The other three are all associated with different Nichiren schools. NSIC supported the Burton Watson translation; the Threefold Lotus Sutra is from Kosei Publishing (affiliated with Rissho Kosei Kai) and Rev. Senchu Murano of Nichiren Shu has published a translation.

Personally, I have copies of these last three; and I study them side-by-side. I have tried to read the Kern version, but have had a very hard time with that one.

Thich Nhat Hanh's book "Opening the Heart of the Cosmos" is a good commentary on the Lotus Sutra. It is, however, from a Vietnamese Zen perspective, and not from a Nichiren one. Ryuei has commented elsewhere on this book; there are also lots of other commentaries available, from T'ien-T'ai's (Chi-ih's) pre-Nichiren commentaries down to other modern ones. Hope all of this helps.

Namaste, Engyo Mike Barrett

Further comment,
It irritates me that people want to somehow bypass the traditional schools. It really doesn't work that way. You can not avoid a certain point of view. Unless you want to just make stuff up on your own, all of us learn Buddhism from some source. If that source is from practitioners, then they will be practitioners who learned how to practice from some source with a point of view. If they are not practitioners but academics (like Kern) then that is another point of view - and one that is not informed by faith or practice.

It is not about finding some mythical objectivity - as if Independent are anymore objective than anyone else. Rather, it is finding an informed source whose integrity, sincerity, and depth one trusts.

Thich Nhat Hanh comes at the Lotus Sutra from a Zen and Pure Land perspective. It is informed by that and by his emphasis on Mindfulness. It is not part of the lineage of commentary starting with Chih-i, working its way through Miao-lo and then Saicho and then Nichiren. That is not necessarily good or bad, but it is a different sensibility. My view is that the chapters on the Bodhisattvas of the Lotus Sutra (chapters 23-28 in the sutra) are particularly informative and edifying, but I find the commentary on the 8 chapters important to Nichiren (15-22) anemic. And that is my opinion as someone who has found the Chih-i to Nichiren lineage of commentary edifying and illuminating.

Also, I think it is a terrible shame that the Hurvitz translation is out of print. That translation was the only English translation of the Kumarajiva with an appendix of translations from the passages from the Sanskrit version of the sutra for comparison.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

In Re: to Ryuei's comments:

He wrote:

"It irritates me that people want to somehow bypass the traditional schools. It really doesn't work that way. You can not avoid a certain point of view. Unless you want to just make stuff up on your own, all of us learn Buddhism from some source."

I totally agree. Buddhism, any kind of significant teaching requires teachers, structure, and point-of-view, otherwise you have untrained, uninformed, and unlearned practitioners. we see this with New Age advocates who dabble here and there and their smattering of shallow understanding is just enough to make them dangerous in the sense that they pass on half-wit information.

It seems to me that if your interested in a religion - like Buddhism - at first you need sangha, then a teacher, and then you must learn. It's fine to compare and then make a decision of which school to follow, but a teacher is essential.

In today's day and age of the internet and electronic sanghas' one may be able to benefit by that, but it's really no substitute for eyeball to eyeball training.

In the case of shut-ins' and people far away from any groups or teachers, you do what you can with what you have - that's understandable.

There is no substitute for a good teacher.

Charles

Ryuei wrote: "Unless you want to just make stuff up on your own, all of us learn Buddhism from some source."

I think revelation through direct insight is possible too. Somebody, at some point, 'just made it up.'? Who thought up the postures & gestures? Or the idea of an altar? It seems like this is hard wired into us. Dog's begging, people praying?

Hi Ryoben,
The people who initially "made it up" were the Buddha and his Sangha of suppsedly enlightned monastics - at any rate people who lived and breathed the Dharma 24/7. Over the course of time refinements were made by other hardcore practitioners in order to accomodate new insights and different circumstances. That is the whole purpose of a tradition as I see it, to pass down this heritage. To fiddle with it may be appropriate, but I would only trust such fiddling at the hands of people who had deeply delved into the source material and had their own genuine insight and deep experience. Otherwise, it is people just altering things for their own convenience and in order to match their own subjective whims, whims that may be far from enlightened. This is why in many ways I am so conservative and why I am constantly seeking out good teachers like my sensei the Ven. Ryusho Matsuda or my good friend Taigen Dan Leighton or Dharmajim. It would be the height of hubris for me to claim that I have attained a level where I can feel free to innovate or make up stuff.

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei

Ryuei,

I agree for the most part. But I am maybe less critical of eclectic innovators than what I was reading? It is going to happen anyway, there is not much we can do to stop it. What has value has a good chance of surviving into future generations.

Based on what I haver been reading recently, it appears there is a lot Buddhist-Shinto syncretism implicit in Nichiren's thought; such as equating Tensho Daijin with Mahavairochana.

I have gotten reactions from some Japanese members that this is maybe okay; but Buddhist-Christian syncretism is not. That is what I was alluding to. And Ryuei conservative?

Anyway, the way things are right now, I encourage anyone who wishes to incorporate Buddhism in their life in any way that works for them.

There is stuff that annoys me. Like this: http://www.1ebooks.com/jogyo/sample.shtml
Also:
http://www.1ebooks.com/jogyo/sample.pdf

robin

Robin, you wrote: "There is stuff that annoys me. Like this: http://www.1ebooks.com/jogyo/sample.shtml
Also:
http://www.1ebooks.com/jogyo/sample.pdf"
I couldn't access these. What are they?

http://www.1ebooks.com/jogyo/sample.shtml

Did you try to copy & paste the links? Maybe your security has a bs detector & blocked it.
Some guy claims to be Jogyo.

robin